9MM Stopping Power

[okc-zee]

I've been researchng balistics here on 9mm ammo for SD..Some say "go heavy" others say it doesn't really matter...I'm fine carrying a 9 as a primary carry...I keep my S&W MP45c as a nightstand gun as it's a bit much for me to carry...What is some good 9mm ammo that has adequate stopping power? Is 147gr compared to 124gr or 115gr JHP's make that much of a difference? My summer carry right now is a Kel Tec PF9 w/ Hornady 115gr critical defense...Someone please educate me on these matters...

 

[lions]

Here is a good link I saved from a recent thread:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

I prefer 124gr standard velocity, but most any bullet weight from most any reputable manufacturer should serve you well.

 

[Snowdog]

My summer carry right now is a Kel Tec PF9 w/ Hornady 115gr critical defense.

There you go. If your pistol likes it, just stick with it and try not to sweat the small stuff. There's no reason for me to think that won't work.

 

[metalman8600]

7.45 g (115.0 gr) FMJ 390 m/s (1,300 ft/s) 570 J (420 ft·lbf)
8.00 g (123.5 gr) FMJ 360 m/s (1,200 ft/s) 518 J (382 ft·lbf)
9.1 g (140 gr) FMJ 305 m/s (1,000 ft/s) 419 J (309 ft·lbf)
9.5 g (147 gr) JHP 368 m/s (1,210 ft/s) 643 J (474 ft·lbf)
7.45 g (115.0 gr) JHP +P+ 435 m/s (1,430 ft/s) 704 J (519 ft·lbf)

Source: Sellier & Bellot[1] Vihtavuori Reloading Guide 2009 [2] Buffalo Bore [3]
C.I.P.[4]

...

 

[RyanM]

Personally, I wouldn't carry anything but 147 gr Remington Golden sabers, if I owned a 9mm. 147 grain Federal HST should be pretty decent, too.

I prefer the heaviest bullet that can be pushed to circa 900-1000 fps.

 

[CDW4ME]

9mm loads I would or do carry:
Remington 115 +P
CorBon 115 +P
Federal 115 +P+
Winchester Ranger T 124 +P
Winchester Ranger T 127 +P+

Any of those are acceptable for my SD needs. In small pistols like the Kahr PM9, I'll stick with the +P loads. In a Glock, any of them.

I would only go with a 147 gr bullet if extra penetratrion is required / desired.

 

[duns]

I think the following was originally from Masad Ayoob:

Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks.

 

[wow6599]

Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks.

Not sure Mas said that, but I have read he has never been fond of 147 gr 9mm loads.
If you want what a 9mm does well, stick with 115 or 124 gr rds. If you want heavy and "slow", use a .45ACP. JMO

 

[Hk Dan]

Wow--I concur.

The 147 grain bullet in 9mm is just silly. How do I know? I've tried it. It has a recoil impulse more characteristice of a .45 ACP round. You can actually feel the recoil, picking up a new round, chambering, and locking. I prefer things to go a bit faster, going with a 115 in Bullseye or a .40 in 180 grain loaded with bullseye for competition. Pull the trigger, and it's back on target. bang, snap, bang.

 

[167]

There are good and bad bullets in every weight. Stay with the premium stuff from one of the big three (ATK, Winchester, Remington) and you should be fine. Just make sure it runs in your gun.

 

[AKElroy]

I like actual shooting data more than balistic charts. Go lite & fast. Mine are loaded w/ 115 gr +P+ Doubletaps.

http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0&Weight=All

 

[earlthegoat2]

Personally, I wouldn't carry anything but 147 gr Remington Golden sabers, if I owned a 9mm. 147 grain Federal HST should be pretty decent, too

Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks.

Though am not sure how much weight Ayoobs supposed opinions hold on the modern 147 grain bullet offerings, I will agree with the last part of it in that I have experienced every sort of malfunction possible with 147 grain Golden Sabers in my Browning Hi Power and HK P7. Failure to feed and fire, faiure to eject, and erratic accuracy on top of that.

In light of this I think the 147 grain loads of today are a little different than in the past. Remember the 147 was developed as a subsonic round for silenced submachineguns (maybe that is a myth too) but the point is they were used extensively for this and were never originally intended for everyday pistol use. They have since been modified accordingly.

As far as the loads I use, they are 124 gr +P Gold Dots, 115 gr +P CorBon DPX. I stay away from Critical Defense because I believe it to be a gimmick. The truth is though that I would feel pretty good using FMJs. There is a lot of theory in stopping power and precious little real world hard evidence.

If you are really in doubt about your bullets performance I would buy about 10 boxes of the cheapest ammo that will shoot reliably in your weapon and go out to the range and practice until you are confident.

It really is not the bullet. It is the person doing the shooing and how many time that person shoots and how accurately they shoot.

 

[GRIZ22]

most any bullet weight from most any reputable manufacturer should serve you well.


I agree and prefer to use what is more accurate in a particular gun. Silvertip or Gold Dot in a Glock, just about any 147 gr in S&W, Taurus or Beretta. If I can't get these any quality ammo (prefer 115 gr or more) will do. I don't like to use +P or +P+ as the gains are neglible if any.

There is no magic bullet in any caliber.

 

[JohnKSa]

My personal philosophy is that if you're using a load with a bullet that is at either end of the spectrum for the caliber in question, you're trying to make it something it's not.

People who try to make things into things that they're not are usually just going to make themselves disappointed.

 

[gofastman]

Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks.

This is one of the most idiotic things I have ever read, I think it's his cognitive ability that sucks.

When 147gr subsonic rounds were first used, some of that info may have been true.

Bullet penetration is one of the most important characteristics to have, probably second only to shot placement - sectional density for the most part equals penetration - 147gr rounds have very high sectional density

 

[jackpinesavages]

Just read my sig lines a-c

 

[Snowdog]

Funny, I don't recall ever having issues with 147gr JHPs (or FMJs) from any of the 9mms I've had over the years. However, from memory this only consists of a Glock 19, Taurus PT908 & PT99 (both long gone), CD Hi-Power, Bersa UC9 and Kahr K9, though some of these pistols also had the recoil spring replaced with something heavier than stock and still worked fine with heavier fodder.

For a while, I found 147gr Federal HST and Winchester 147gr Rangers to be my preferred carry load but eventually settled on Winchester's RA9124TP (124gr +P Ranger) since it's proven accurate in all my current 9mms and was inexpensive for a decent JHP, so I bought gobs of it to last for a while.

Ayoob has infinitely more experience with actual street results than the typical guy like me, so I'm sure he's basing his opinion on something tangible. However, I've never personally noticed modern 147gr JHPs to be more prone to stoppages.

Back to my original response, if whatever JHP you're currently using works well with your pistol, there's likely no real reason to switch to something else unless you're hunting for the warm and fuzzy feelings. From experience, I can tell you that hunt never ends. It's best just to find something solid and stick with it.

 

[basicblur]

This is one of the most idiotic things I have ever read, I think it's his cognitive ability that sucks.

I'm pretty sure the "147 gr. bad" is an older quote from Ayoob as I recall reading it, BUT I also remember reading newer quotes from him where he's changed his stance based on newer 147 gr. bullets expansion characteristics being redesigned.

Don't remember if his newer impressions covered which brands/rounds etc had been redesigned-probably mentioned 'em, but not in the old memory bank!

 

[xcatm]

There is no such thing as stopping power. You either stop the threat with well placed hits or you don't. Find what functions well in your pistol and train hard. Sometimes the same people who hate the 147gr in 9mm will love the 158gr SWCHP in .38spl +P. There is no magic bullet. Buy the highest quality ammo you can find that works in your pistol and train with a simillar weight in training ammo. Shot placement is the key, not caliber. Money spent in hardware does not make up for a lack of "software" ie; training.

YMMV,
XCATM

 

[Vonderek]

I believe I read that quote from Ayoob at least 15 years ago. I don't know what he thinks today but modern factory JHP is much improved now than back then. That said I carry 115+P or 124gr std pressure depending on the gun. No reason other than it works and I am confident with it.

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

I'm not a fan of anything heavier than 124 grain for the 9mm. The main reason is due to the larger bullet taking up more of the case, limiting powder capacity. After you pass the 135 grain mark you tip the scales in the other direction of the power to weight ratio. 147 grain bullets are great if you are shooting with a suppressor but I leave it at that.

 

[918v]

Powder capacity is not an issue. You can run 147's up to 1100 FPS safely, which is right up there with 124gr standard pressure loads.

 

[climbnjump]

Quote:
Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks.

This is one of the most idiotic things I have ever read, I think it's his cognitive ability that sucks.

I think we should be careful about attributing quotes to someone without being sure that they actually said it. I do not know if Mr. Ayoob said the above or not. However, here are a couple of his comments on 9mm rounds that I know he DID write.

From the "Nosler Reloading Guide #6" (published Nov. 2007), page 654:

In 1985, I convinced fledgeling ammo maker Pete Pi to produce a 115 gr JHP at 1350 fps ... These loads give maximum "stopping power" to the 9mm Para and make it a true fighting handgun cartridge. Its track record is distinctly better than the controversial 147 grain subsonic JHP that became popular as a result of FBI gelatin tests in the '80's.

Winchester originally developed the 147 grain JHP at 950 to 990 fps as a precision accuracy round. In my experience, it is one of the most accurate 9mm Parabellum rounds you can buy.

From "The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery" 6th edition (published 2007) written by Massad Ayoob, page 98:

Illinios State Police were not the only ones to prove that the +P+ 115-grain JHP at 1,300 feet per second was the best man-stopper in this caliber. U.S. Border Patrol and Secret Service found the same in extensive study of real-world experience.

...

Most law enforcement agencies that adopted the 147-grain JHP subsonic, as noted above, have gotten away from it after disappointing results in the field. Expansion failures and overpenetrations occurred too often.

From those two sources, it does appear that Mr. Ayoob does favor 115 gr over 147 grain loads for defensive purposes.

But if accuracy shooting is your game, give the 147 grain loads a try.

 

[outerlimit]

I've seen plenty of studies that contradict one another. One says that you should go as heavy as possible with .38spl, because the light loads weren't penetrating and putting down the bad guys. The next one says you should go with very light 9mm because the heavy stuff was not expanding and overpenetrating. I guess maybe penetration doesn't matter as much if you have 17-20 bullets on tap as opposed to 5 or 6.

I tend to prefer the heavier rounds in most calibers, but with 9mm I usually stick with the 124-127gr. +P & +P+ loads. I think the 124gr. +P is probably closest to the original 9x19mm Luger specs. The 147gr. loads do tend to penetrate a little bit more, with the expense of some expansion. I wouldn't mind a good 147gr. +P load if it functioned well.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I have never had any problems with any 147g loads, though I prefer 124g JHP for general use. I do like the 147g FMJ-FP +P from DoubleTap Ammo. I put it in my wife's gun when we go backpacking. The penetration is absurd.