9mm Stopping Power
- Thread starter GunLvrNLearner
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Thanks for not framing this as "38 vs 9mm," that brings out the worst of people. This thread contains some good info.
I think the irony is that lots of people say "I carry 45 when I can, 38 when I can't, and 9mm sucks."
Subtext: don't listen to 'em...
I think the irony is that lots of people say "I carry 45 when I can, 38 when I can't, and 9mm sucks."
Subtext: don't listen to 'em...
putteral
Member
I do know one thing. The bigger the caliber the bigger the hole it makes.
DougDubya
Member
putteral - you fail to take into account, fmj does not cut full caliber holes through flesh. A .45 ACP wound will not measure .451 inches across because it's a streamlined bullet.
Flat metplats on SWC's or hollowpoint cavities allow for greater flesh contact.
Flat metplats on SWC's or hollowpoint cavities allow for greater flesh contact.
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jaholder1971
Member
I'll take a .22 hole through the heart, lung or spine over a .72 caliber hole through a hand, shoulder or gut all day long.
BillyBothHands
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There will always be a "Ford vs Chevy" debate in any topic of discussion, before that it was "horse vs mule" and before that i'm sure it was "saber tooth vs. mammoth".
Shoot what you like, like what you shoot and pick up a .22 so you can shoot all the time and not go to the poor house lol.
I'm often reminded of a fella I met in college wise beyond his years (translation: he drank a lot and ran his mouth lol) , but he did say one thing often in response to almost any heated debate or arguement that stuck with me...
!@#$ 'em if they can't take a joke
Shoot what you like, like what you shoot and pick up a .22 so you can shoot all the time and not go to the poor house lol.
I'm often reminded of a fella I met in college wise beyond his years (translation: he drank a lot and ran his mouth lol) , but he did say one thing often in response to almost any heated debate or arguement that stuck with me...
!@#$ 'em if they can't take a joke
silverbullet1976
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- 6
the 9 is fine
I know it's been said before, but it rings true. PLENTY of bad guys (and good guys too) have been felled with 9MM ammo, ball and hollowpoint alike. FYI :The .45 came out of neccesity to have a better round than the .38 S&W we were using. It's legendary status as a man stopper developed out of overblown accounts from WWI and II. There weren't that many pistol fights in those wars (or any wars for that matter). The Thompson however made it a legend during Prohibition and WWII. And so did the German MP40 for the 9mm. Ask any American or Russian downrange of one. Multiple hits from any pistol round in rapid succession is deadly whether it be a 9 or cannister shot! Just as many men were dropped by Lugers as Colts in CQB situations. Both were deadly. The .40 came about because of two things. The FBI being a bureacracy before an LE Agency and not getting a faster, more realiable round (which guess what, WAS AVAILABLE). And the fact that bullets, no matter what caliber, don't always do the job in one shot. God bless Grogan and Dove. Practice, Practice, Practice. A 9mm WILL do the job with a well placed shot, sometimes multiples. Remember civies, you aren't trained, hardened combatants. You'll be scared *&%#less if the balloon goes up, so have a bullet that has a good PD record and you are accurate with. Believe in your ability to strike true. I've seen what a 9 can do. THEY WORK
I know it's been said before, but it rings true. PLENTY of bad guys (and good guys too) have been felled with 9MM ammo, ball and hollowpoint alike. FYI :The .45 came out of neccesity to have a better round than the .38 S&W we were using. It's legendary status as a man stopper developed out of overblown accounts from WWI and II. There weren't that many pistol fights in those wars (or any wars for that matter). The Thompson however made it a legend during Prohibition and WWII. And so did the German MP40 for the 9mm. Ask any American or Russian downrange of one. Multiple hits from any pistol round in rapid succession is deadly whether it be a 9 or cannister shot! Just as many men were dropped by Lugers as Colts in CQB situations. Both were deadly. The .40 came about because of two things. The FBI being a bureacracy before an LE Agency and not getting a faster, more realiable round (which guess what, WAS AVAILABLE). And the fact that bullets, no matter what caliber, don't always do the job in one shot. God bless Grogan and Dove. Practice, Practice, Practice. A 9mm WILL do the job with a well placed shot, sometimes multiples. Remember civies, you aren't trained, hardened combatants. You'll be scared *&%#less if the balloon goes up, so have a bullet that has a good PD record and you are accurate with. Believe in your ability to strike true. I've seen what a 9 can do. THEY WORK
Cpt. America
Member
If the 9mm was so ineffective it would not have lasted as long as it has. The military is going away from it because Geniva conventions does not allow the use of Hollow point ammo and in FMJ the 9mm falls short of what a .45 acp will do loaded with FMJ. For personal defense the 9mm is a great caliber loaded with a quality hollow point bullet ammo. Most people like to follow fad's and the 9mm is certainly not a fad it has been in use since 1902 and the .45 acp has been in use since 1904. Where the .40 S&W has been in use since 1990 its a fine round but will it last as long as the others mentioned?
That's an unfair criticism. Not everyone has private property to go shoot on; private & public ranges tend to have strict rules these days (paper only, preapproved targets only). Not everyone has the technical expertise to design and conduct well-controlled ballistic studies. Moreover, there is no need.
It is reasonable to trust the research of others. If a doctor says "you need to be on high-dose oxaliplatin right away", you don't normally go set up a histopathology laboratory of your own to be able to verify the hospital's report, or start enrolling patients in a clincial trial so you can decide if oxliplatin is right for people with your disease. You trust the substantial work done before.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/ , http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#9mm , FBI testing, purchasing decisions made by cool government agencies, word-of-mouth, are all reasonable sources of information.
1. No, the military is not going away from it, they just signed a contract with Beretta for several thousand new 9mm pistols. In fact, I'm not aware of ANY military in the hundred year history of the 9mm that has ever issued the 9mm and then switched to another caliber due to performance issues.
2. The Geneva convention says no such thing, it's the Hague convention that decries the use of expanding ammunition in war.
Cpt. America
Member
U.S. Brings Back the .45
January 27, 2006: After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as "official alternatives" to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches. SOCOM will, with input from other branches, handle the evaluation and final selection. This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don't hold your breath.
January 27, 2006: After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as "official alternatives" to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches. SOCOM will, with input from other branches, handle the evaluation and final selection. This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don't hold your breath.
Ridgerunner665
Member
Originally posted by sm:
That wins "Most Sensible Post of the Year" award...very well said.
That wins "Most Sensible Post of the Year" award...very well said.
Cpt. America
Member
I retired from the Army last year and honestly I love the M9 and the 9mm is my choice of caliber to carry for CCW. But I have heard that the Military wants to go back to the .45 but I've been hearing that since I enlisted in the Army as well. I was just saying somthing I read not trying to change the subject.
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
What SM said.
armoredman
Member
9mm and 38 spl. 
pabst_20
Member
I perfer the 9mm i have a Ultra CDP that i had the choice of a 45 and a 9 i bought the nine because it is a better choice of conceal carry recoil is less. i also have a rossi 38 snub nose and would much rather carry my CDP in 9mm IMO 9 is more accurate and if you put two in the chest and one in the head its not going to matter what caliber of bullet you have.
JImbothefiveth
Member
Perhaps the best calibers for new shooters, and, realisticly, not as much stopping power as .40 or .45.
And there's a false assumption, that people with bigger calibers can't shoot. It will be a little more difficult, however, I'd say that going from .22 to 9mm is good and going from 9mm to .45 is probably good, once you can shoot .45 well. Also, a 9mm might reach something important when a .22 wouldn't, like if someone is shooting at you and you hit his arm that's in front of him.
mljdeckard
Member
The military has been "thinking about" dropping the 9mm for 20 years. It is not the Geneva Convention which forbids the use of bullets designed to expand, it's the Hague Accords, which we never signed, BTW. I don't anticipate having my sidearm being anything other than an M-9 before I retire, which is still some years off.
As far as I can tell, the .38 and 9mm are practical equivalents, it's a question of the load and the platform that make the difference. The hi-cap 9mm seems to be the platform of choice for .....entities that can't or won't take the time to train to effectiveness with a 5-shot .38.
As far as I can tell, the .38 and 9mm are practical equivalents, it's a question of the load and the platform that make the difference. The hi-cap 9mm seems to be the platform of choice for .....entities that can't or won't take the time to train to effectiveness with a 5-shot .38.
RedLion
Member
I think a lot of the bad rep for the 9mm comes from shootings like the Miami shoot out or encounters in Iraq/Afghanistan/what have you, where someone is either forced, or foolishly decides to bring a handgun to a rifle/shotgun fight.
I doubt anyone here would have suggested to the FBI agents in Miami that they should take a .45 because thats going to do a lot better against a guy with a .223 semi auto rifle.
I have to believe that one of the reasons for the success of the .40 right now is because, along with adopting a new round specifically for encounters like in Miami, officers are also being trained how to better handle situations like that, so my guess is that it is more in the training rather than the tools.
When you bring drugs into the mix, or just some divine beliefs you make matters even worse. The only way a bullet is going to stop someone in their tracks is either through Newtonian physics (which would suck for the shooter) or by shooting the medulla oblongata. There's a reason why police sniper aim for the medulla oblongata even though they are using the .308.
I doubt anyone here would have suggested to the FBI agents in Miami that they should take a .45 because thats going to do a lot better against a guy with a .223 semi auto rifle.
I have to believe that one of the reasons for the success of the .40 right now is because, along with adopting a new round specifically for encounters like in Miami, officers are also being trained how to better handle situations like that, so my guess is that it is more in the training rather than the tools.
When you bring drugs into the mix, or just some divine beliefs you make matters even worse. The only way a bullet is going to stop someone in their tracks is either through Newtonian physics (which would suck for the shooter) or by shooting the medulla oblongata. There's a reason why police sniper aim for the medulla oblongata even though they are using the .308.
searcher451
Member
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but haven't we tilled this ground 50 or more times this month alone on this very forum?
It amazes me, more and more, that so much can be made of so little so often. The 9mm round has been with us for years. The amount of bodies it has left behind staggers the imagination ... from WWII alone. The point of these ceaseless discussions about its stopping power, and the number of people who weigh in as though this has never been discussed previously, never ceases to amaze.
It amazes me, more and more, that so much can be made of so little so often. The 9mm round has been with us for years. The amount of bodies it has left behind staggers the imagination ... from WWII alone. The point of these ceaseless discussions about its stopping power, and the number of people who weigh in as though this has never been discussed previously, never ceases to amaze.
gmh1013
Member
The 9 is mighty fine IMHO.
Can be loaded for fast with 115 grain ball ammo or slow with 158 subsonics...and I can still hold 20 rounds in my Taurus or 15 in SIG
Next fav would be the .38...All I know is I would hate to be hit with either or.
As somebody pointed out ....many a dead men from a 9mm or a .38
Can be loaded for fast with 115 grain ball ammo or slow with 158 subsonics...and I can still hold 20 rounds in my Taurus or 15 in SIG
Next fav would be the .38...All I know is I would hate to be hit with either or.
As somebody pointed out ....many a dead men from a 9mm or a .38
Zerodefect
member
The 9mm works fine.
The .40 is a little bigger and a little faster. So obviously it works a little better.
I prefere .45acp because its softer recoil with less muzzel flip works for me. The .45 has allways imprssed me every chance it gets.
The only evidence against the 9mm that I have read is that sometimes (rarely), if it hits solid bone at the right angle that bone can deflect the bullet into a non vital area of the body. .40 and .45 would be more likely to go straight through the bone. It happens to .45 and .40 to, just less likely.
Of course thats just an observation, allmost impossible to get real world data that make a fair comparison.
I'm not concerned at all about giving up capacity.
I've got no problem with 9mm.....but I'd rather cram as large of a round as possible into my gun.
The .40 is a little bigger and a little faster. So obviously it works a little better.
I prefere .45acp because its softer recoil with less muzzel flip works for me. The .45 has allways imprssed me every chance it gets.
The only evidence against the 9mm that I have read is that sometimes (rarely), if it hits solid bone at the right angle that bone can deflect the bullet into a non vital area of the body. .40 and .45 would be more likely to go straight through the bone. It happens to .45 and .40 to, just less likely.
Of course thats just an observation, allmost impossible to get real world data that make a fair comparison.
I'm not concerned at all about giving up capacity.
I've got no problem with 9mm.....but I'd rather cram as large of a round as possible into my gun.
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