There have been issues in the past with 147 grain loads (particularly JHPs), but some of the newest have improved so much that they are actually preferred loads for some. The PDX1 (AKA Ranger Bonded) and HST loads in particular work really well, from what I've seen (great combination of expansion and penetration, plus a longer bullet that does more damage when it tumbles inside the body, as most bullets do). Unless they've made some recent changes, I don't think that the Gold Dot load is quite right yet, though, as it still has trouble expanding as much and consistently as it should.
9MM Stopping Power
- Thread starter okc-zee
- Start date
- Status
fastbolt
Member
I carried the older W-W 147gr OSM 147gr loads when first required to carry a 9mm duty weapon. As I recall, they didn't ask for my opinion. 
Later we were given 147gr Hydra-Shock because of some informal testing done by a couple of folks within our agency. Again, I wasn't asked.
As time passed we issued the 127gr +P+ RASXTP and then the RA9TP loads. I had some input onto that decision, but it was only based on some anecdotal info received from a feed agency who used it when they qualified at our range, and some early things being reported by some LE agencies who were using it. The Winchester rep was selling a LOT of it, too.
Later on we switched to the Rem 124gr GS +P (non-bonded) because it was on the state contract. The latest state contract has the Win RA9124TP T-series 124gr +P load on it, so I imagine I'll eventually start seeing that in the inventory at my former agency when I show up at the range.
I've also used some other various loads from the major manufacturers over the years, when duty loads were a mandatory issue thing or when ammo for off-duty weapons had a looser requirement. This included Speer 124gr +P & 147gr GD, Rem 147gr GS and even some Rem 115gr +P+ (although I mostly shot that up for training). I've even got some 147gr RA9T sitting around somewhere in my ammo supply.
The long and short of it is that there's a lot of good quality 9mm defensive ammo being produced which use some newer designed hollowpoint bullets that have been refined to offer better performance, and often do so within a wider velocity window (since the ammo companies realize that cops are going to be using shorter barreled guns for plainclothes, secondary/backup & off-duty roles).
There's still some of the older style traditional JHP's being produced, especially in the low-cost, bargain product lines, too. The stuff which didn't offer robust expansion when fired through many of the more difficult ballistics testing scenarios.
When it's all said and done, though, it really comes down to how well any given load feeds, fires & functions in any particular pistol, in the hands of any particular shooter. Lots of statistics still indicate the potential for an unfortunate number of misses among the wide spectrum of LE agencies. Misses with great bullets aren't any more effective than misses with older style hollowpoint bullets (or FMJ, for that mater).
Once I reached the point where I was much more concerned about my consistent training, practice and skillsets, regardless of what ammo I was issued (without choice), or authorized to use. I realized I could really stack the odds more in my favor if I was a better all around shooter and really focused on my training & practice.
Then there's that whole issue of understanding and trying to train to anticipate and mitigate the adverse effects of hormonally induced physiological problems caused by the fear response.
You have to hit the intended target, regardless of whatever round you're using, after all.
I still like to have one of the better designed & performing modern defensive loads, given my druthers. Right now that seems to mean the RA9TA 127gr +P+ and the Rem 124gr +P GS. I've got one or the other of those in my different 9mm's, depending on what's at hand when I'm loading mags.
That doesn't mean that's what I'll be using in another year or two, though.
Later we were given 147gr Hydra-Shock because of some informal testing done by a couple of folks within our agency. Again, I wasn't asked.
As time passed we issued the 127gr +P+ RASXTP and then the RA9TP loads. I had some input onto that decision, but it was only based on some anecdotal info received from a feed agency who used it when they qualified at our range, and some early things being reported by some LE agencies who were using it. The Winchester rep was selling a LOT of it, too.
Later on we switched to the Rem 124gr GS +P (non-bonded) because it was on the state contract. The latest state contract has the Win RA9124TP T-series 124gr +P load on it, so I imagine I'll eventually start seeing that in the inventory at my former agency when I show up at the range.
I've also used some other various loads from the major manufacturers over the years, when duty loads were a mandatory issue thing or when ammo for off-duty weapons had a looser requirement. This included Speer 124gr +P & 147gr GD, Rem 147gr GS and even some Rem 115gr +P+ (although I mostly shot that up for training). I've even got some 147gr RA9T sitting around somewhere in my ammo supply.
The long and short of it is that there's a lot of good quality 9mm defensive ammo being produced which use some newer designed hollowpoint bullets that have been refined to offer better performance, and often do so within a wider velocity window (since the ammo companies realize that cops are going to be using shorter barreled guns for plainclothes, secondary/backup & off-duty roles).
There's still some of the older style traditional JHP's being produced, especially in the low-cost, bargain product lines, too. The stuff which didn't offer robust expansion when fired through many of the more difficult ballistics testing scenarios.
When it's all said and done, though, it really comes down to how well any given load feeds, fires & functions in any particular pistol, in the hands of any particular shooter. Lots of statistics still indicate the potential for an unfortunate number of misses among the wide spectrum of LE agencies. Misses with great bullets aren't any more effective than misses with older style hollowpoint bullets (or FMJ, for that mater).
Once I reached the point where I was much more concerned about my consistent training, practice and skillsets, regardless of what ammo I was issued (without choice), or authorized to use. I realized I could really stack the odds more in my favor if I was a better all around shooter and really focused on my training & practice.
Then there's that whole issue of understanding and trying to train to anticipate and mitigate the adverse effects of hormonally induced physiological problems caused by the fear response.
You have to hit the intended target, regardless of whatever round you're using, after all.
I still like to have one of the better designed & performing modern defensive loads, given my druthers. Right now that seems to mean the RA9TA 127gr +P+ and the Rem 124gr +P GS. I've got one or the other of those in my different 9mm's, depending on what's at hand when I'm loading mags.
That doesn't mean that's what I'll be using in another year or two, though.
bdb benzino
Member
I am pretty sure the quoted statement is not from Mas, I think it may be from Chuck Hawks though!
FWIW I will not stop using my 147gr Black Talons any time soon.
FWIW I will not stop using my 147gr Black Talons any time soon.
bdb benzino
Member
Ya there is, but I like the added weight of the bullet for carry in my 9mm revolver, but for my autos I use Speer GDHP 124gr +p. I also dont think the Talons are lacking in any way, and in a way I am keeping the bullets to similar weights compared to ideal 38spl loads. Have there been reports of Black Talons not preforming well?? I thought they were banned because they were "too effective".
They were taken out of production by Winchester because a bunch of politicians were calling for "cop killer" bullets like the Black Talon to be banned. They never actually were banned, but the cop killer moniker got slapped on there by politicians that thought they were armor piercing. Take a look around YouTube and you'll find videos of ignorant pols saying that the Black Talon is designed to hook into flesh, and open like an umbrella during flight, sprouting razorblade fins. Laughable populist propaganda.
Anyway, we all know they're not that different than anybody else's JHP rounds in terms of the way they work, and and it was kind of funny that they got branded as armor piercing "cop killers" since they're JHP rounds, meaning they stand less of a chance of penetrating an officer's vest than a standard FMJ round.
Anyway, you can now find a similar design under the Winchester "SXT" brand. It's widely speculated that the SXT name was selected because it meant "Same Xact Thing", though the design is different.
The Black Talon is a perfectly good round as far as I know, I just wondered why you used them because they're so expensive and hard to find nowadays compared to designs that are still manufactured.
bdb benzino
Member
I just have a bunch laying around that my father gave me from his LE days. I figure I may as well put them to use.
jackpinesavages
member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2009
- Messages
- 809
Aim small, miss small.
That means; Aiming at the nose bridge will still get you a head shot.
You'd be amazed at how much more "stopping power" you will find with 500 practice rounds to the head, instead of center mass. You WILL be amazed at how much more confidence you have in your shooting when your headshots are suddenly not missing by more than 2 inches, even on moving targets with simunition.
I understand the fascination with bullistics, but to debate stopping power again? The purpose of self-defense weapons is to stop the threat, when used in that capacity. The best way to stop the threat is to hit the largest bundle of the central nervous system. The head shot contains the stopping power where the largest CNS bundle resides.
That means; Aiming at the nose bridge will still get you a head shot.
You'd be amazed at how much more "stopping power" you will find with 500 practice rounds to the head, instead of center mass. You WILL be amazed at how much more confidence you have in your shooting when your headshots are suddenly not missing by more than 2 inches, even on moving targets with simunition.
I understand the fascination with bullistics, but to debate stopping power again? The purpose of self-defense weapons is to stop the threat, when used in that capacity. The best way to stop the threat is to hit the largest bundle of the central nervous system. The head shot contains the stopping power where the largest CNS bundle resides.
Going back to Ayoob-I remember he said the original Black Talons were overrated as the tended to penetrate too far before expanding. When they were rebranded (and redesigned), they were designed to expand sooner.
Don't remember what they morphed into as I don't use much Winchester SD ammo-aren't they now Ranger, Ranger T, etc?
AFA the original 147-gr. quote-the exact quote posted may not have been from Ayoob, but I do recall reading something similar from him. I don't recall his complaint being from feeding problems-he stated reports from the field showed there were expansion problems with the older 147-gr. design, supposedly corrected with newer designs.
If this link works (couldn't copy and paste) you can read his thoughts on the bottom of page 103, under the section Since The Last Edition.
There’s also more info on the 147-gr. on page 98 at the link in the 9mm Luger section.
They're not as reliable, regarding expansion, as the up-to-date version known today as the Ranger-T (with the "T" being a code for Talon, I would guess).
They were demonized in the media for being "Teflon-coated cop-killer" bullets, which was utter nonsense, of course.
Actually, they do have extremely sharp, pointed "fins" when they expand, which is precisely why they're called "talons" (the "black" coloring is simply a bullet lube). Whether and how this might affect wounding is up for debate, but that's a pretty accurate description. Modern Ranger-Ts still have the talons, by the way--they're a bit smaller than those of the original design, but they're also stronger and sharper.
As an update, Winchester seems to have done away with SXT branding altogether. It used to be that the SXT-branded JHP that was intended for law enforcement (Ranger SXT) was the Black Talon (and updated versions thereof) in disguise (i.e. minus the black lube), while the SXT-branded JHP that was intended for the civilian market was a completely different design. Nowadays, among the premium JHPs available from Winchester, there are only the Ranger-T and Ranger Bonded (same design but bonded) for law enforcement, and the Supreme Elite PDX1 for civilians (exactly the same as Ranger Bonded, but at a much higher price point).
Technically, the Black Talon is still around as the Ranger-T. Its performance has been improved significantly, although the original still works like it always did and isn't a bad design. Personally, I'd save and perhaps sell Black Talon cartridges as collectibles rather than shoot them, though.
Last edited:
I would take the heaviest bullet in every caliber. You want that penetration to be deep. If it doesn't hit vitals your out of luck. Why risk your life with shallow performing geez whiz hp's. Placement and deep penetration will do the trick. A 147 will do that where as a light 9mm might just be a inch or two shy. Haven't we learned anything from the past.
I have tried pretty much every 9mm out there an in my humble opinion nothing gives me the expansion like the Federal HST line of ammo. The 124+P and 147g are beasts.
http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-2.html
'
Also check out these tests that were done by LAPD:
http://le.atk.com/pdf/LosAngelesWBW.pdf
http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-2.html
'
Also check out these tests that were done by LAPD:
http://le.atk.com/pdf/LosAngelesWBW.pdf
RebelRabbi
Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2010
- Messages
- 78
If your gun is robust i.e. Beretta 92, Glocks, etc. use +P 124's. If you have an older gun i.e. Browning Hi Power Mark 1 use Standard Pressure 147 JHP's. You are not undergunned with a 9 but there are better choices. NCSHP left the 9 due to poor stopping power, they now use the 357 sig and LOVE it. Some of the best 9mm 124 +P's; Cor-Bon, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, get close to .357 Sig territory but they will wear your gun faster. I personally think the Standard Pressure 230 grain JHP 45 ACP is the best choice for Home Defense. That is why there are so many calibers because the gun/caliber/load should be taylored to the need.
Lefty Gunner
Member
- Joined
- May 31, 2006
- Messages
- 9
I would go back to the second post by "lions" and read and re-read DocGKR about ammo performance. Everyone has an opinion, he has the data.
PF-9's sometimes do not like heavier bullets per KTOG posters. I would strongly consider the Gold Dot short barrel loads or the lighter bullet loads from the DocGKR list hosted on M4Carbine.net.
PF-9's sometimes do not like heavier bullets per KTOG posters. I would strongly consider the Gold Dot short barrel loads or the lighter bullet loads from the DocGKR list hosted on M4Carbine.net.
carbine85
Member
With the 9mm you want to stay away from the FMJ. The FMJ can over penetrate and if you are using it in the home and you miss the target it will pass through several walls and may end up somewhere you don't want it. FMJ's are good for practice.
For defense you want the 124 gr JHP +P or the 147 gr JHP. These rounds have good stopping power. If the round works well in your weapon you are good to go, if not you need to fnd another round or another weapon.
Both work very well in both of my Taurus 9mm pistols.
The rule of thumb is to go heavy.
For defense you want the 124 gr JHP +P or the 147 gr JHP. These rounds have good stopping power. If the round works well in your weapon you are good to go, if not you need to fnd another round or another weapon.
Both work very well in both of my Taurus 9mm pistols.
The rule of thumb is to go heavy.
BUFF
Member
I've always preferred light and fast...you can get it lined up for the next shot quicker and the gold standard .357 seems to prove that the closer you get to rifle balistics the better (fast with pentration and expansion). I've been playing with some 95 grain 9mm and I don't need a chrono to tell that they are screaming out of the barrell!! I bet the cor bon 115gr are hard to beat..but I have feed problems with them.
My experiences with 9mm and hunting animals(not 2 legged ones) is that you want to keep the velocity up with a 9mm. When it is down to 1,000 fps you pretty much just have a small 45 acp or worse a 380. I think the smaller bullets and 1300 fps is one of the main things the luger round has going for it.
Most every JHP will do the same thing unless they encounter a fluid medium.
alienbogey
Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2009
- Messages
- 270
I've read lots of articles and posts that say go heavy in 9mm and 147 grain is best.
I've read lots of articles and posts that say go light in 9mm and 115 grain is best.
So....I've just thrown up my hands and gone with the Goldilocks Solution: 124 grain +p in a modern JHP.
Feeds fine in my P7, accurate, no worries.
I've read lots of articles and posts that say go light in 9mm and 115 grain is best.
So....I've just thrown up my hands and gone with the Goldilocks Solution: 124 grain +p in a modern JHP.
Feeds fine in my P7, accurate, no worries.
Deus Machina
Member
Another fan of 124+P all around, here.
The different weights work different in different guns and rounds. If you're married to the old-fashioned FMJ-with-a-hole-in-the-nose style of JHP, go light and fast. If you're a fan of the newer stuff, 147gr HST is some nasty stuff. The older designs (such as Hydro-Shock, some Golden Sabers, the original as mentioned above, or arguably even my beloved Gold Dots) don't manage as well at that weight.
The problem with 9mm in different weights is that heavier does not always mean deeper penetration. Sometimes 147 will open the same or more than 124 and penetrate deeper. Some of the tests I've seen, one weight opens up sooner or wider than the other and dumps energy quicker, and ends up penetrating the same or less. In others, vice versa. 147gr often straddles right on that line of whether or not the weight makes up for the loss in velocity. And do remember that gel tests are an absolute best case.
If you're that worried about it, just grab 124gr in whatever flavor works well in your gun, and practice. There's no replacement for placement.
The different weights work different in different guns and rounds. If you're married to the old-fashioned FMJ-with-a-hole-in-the-nose style of JHP, go light and fast. If you're a fan of the newer stuff, 147gr HST is some nasty stuff. The older designs (such as Hydro-Shock, some Golden Sabers, the original as mentioned above, or arguably even my beloved Gold Dots) don't manage as well at that weight.
The problem with 9mm in different weights is that heavier does not always mean deeper penetration. Sometimes 147 will open the same or more than 124 and penetrate deeper. Some of the tests I've seen, one weight opens up sooner or wider than the other and dumps energy quicker, and ends up penetrating the same or less. In others, vice versa. 147gr often straddles right on that line of whether or not the weight makes up for the loss in velocity. And do remember that gel tests are an absolute best case.
If you're that worried about it, just grab 124gr in whatever flavor works well in your gun, and practice. There's no replacement for placement.
The quote (some attribute to Ayoob) was from, Chuck Hawks report by "anonymous".
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
This article (report) is at least 12 years old using 20 year old data.
It is of little relevence today.
That same report states that the best 9mm is the Cor Bon 115 +P, a good round but certainly not state of the art today. It also recommends the Corbon 95 Grain JHP for 9mm Makarov yet the round has not been made for over 10 years.
FWIW compare the HST 147's in this test:
http://frag.110mb.com/
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
This article (report) is at least 12 years old using 20 year old data.
It is of little relevence today.
That same report states that the best 9mm is the Cor Bon 115 +P, a good round but certainly not state of the art today. It also recommends the Corbon 95 Grain JHP for 9mm Makarov yet the round has not been made for over 10 years.
FWIW compare the HST 147's in this test:
http://frag.110mb.com/
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
That is "sig line" material right there.
FWIW, I've finished off several hogs with a G27 and 124 gr Gold Dots. Good exit wounds and runs well in all my 9mms.
- Status