9mm: Underrated underdog or merely underpowered reject?

[Caseless]

I concur the bigger calibers are more fun to shoot at the range, but wouldn't feel undergunned using a 9mm handgun at self defense range.

Barrier penetration capability, one shot stop caliber, etc. Such topics have nothing to do with self defense for a private citizen IMHO.

 

[Rob96]

Stephen Camp also uses the 9mm for wild pigs. The 9mm, given good loadings, will anchor the bad guy. You just have to do your part. Many times it is the archer and not the arrow.

 

[AStone]

The 9mm, given good loadings, will anchor the bad guy. You just have to do your part.

+2.

Two words X 3: shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

9mm in head or center thorax = stop (at least).

Add 6 more (or less) = dead.

Insert #2 mag, ready for more.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Have more respect for the deer....

9mm for Deer? Ok, maybe for the coup, but not the 1st hunting choice.
The deer here in MI would likely take it away from you and beat you down
with it --and that's just the Does

In all seriousness, I shot out a large buck's heart and a good portion of both
lungs with a 12g slug and the thing still ran 50 yds before he fell down dead.
Of course, I didn't realize this until after I butchered the deer. Amazing.
Someone find me an account of a human still doing that from a slug causing
similar damage. "Wow, he still got a gold medal after being shot!"

 

[Hellbore]

Some of you gun nuts give me gas. It's always the same arguments over and over.

It seems some of you guys think that it takes a perfectly-placed shot to the eye with a tail-wind to stop someone with a 9mm whereas a .45 ACP shot to the hand will kill an attacker instantly.

This wins "most out of touch with reality" quote:

"Perhaps you're correct. Since we have to justify the 9mm so much, maybe it is time for the little thumper to just go away for good."

Keep telling yourself that as 9mm becomes even more widely used every day. 9mm is already the dominant caliber and it's not becoming any less so...

 

[AStone]

TBL, that 50 yd sprint after a 12 ga. slug is not surprising.

Sometimes, it's not the force of the metal hitting tissue that stops movement, but the lack of O2. The slug disrupted heart muscle, which stopped the flow of blood to the leg muscles. But that leg muscle tissue still had enough O2 to allow contraction (= running) for another 150'. When that O2 was expended in generation of energy to run, THEN - and only then - did collapse occur.

You'll observe the same phenomenon in any vertebrate organism, including humans: even after a shot to the heart, expect another X yds and several seconds of fight (driven by adrenaline) before stoppage caused by O2 loss.

Plan accordingly.

 

[dogngun]

The comments about Internet crap are well founded and right on. The 9mm is an excellent defence/military handgun round and has been for almost 100 years. It's my preferred carry round for many reasons. It is controlable, very powerful and penetrating, available anywhere and cheap to practice with. The variety of guns designed for it is amazing, and many quality 9mm pistols are available used, so anyone can afford one.

Mark

 

[AStone]

It is controlable, very powerful and penetrating, available anywhere and cheap to practice with.

Well said. I agree.

My first handgun was a .38 revolver (a Taurus, purchased after some dude on {choose one or more} angel dust/meth tried to come in my window while i had only a baseball bat), but i wanted a semi-auto. (So fast, so sleek, so sexy...)

After some research, I decided on 9 mm for all the reasons stated above.

First came a S&W 3914. But, it was too large for my hand, resulting poor trigger pull,
uncomfortable shooting &, thus, poor groups.

Now, i'm on my second 9 mm, a Kahr K9, for all the reasons stated above.

Long live 9 mm.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I swear, Amadeus,

Have you not bothered to do ANY research prior to this post? You don't want to start any caliber wars, but you start off by incorrectly asking if the 9mm as an underdog or underpowered reject when it is neither. With about 100 years of history, the 9mm is anything but a reject. Given its potential for overpenetration, it is not underpowered.

Even more weird is that you want folks to wax positive about the 9mm. So you really don't want to know if it is an underdog or underpowered as you apparently are not actually looking for information. You just want some sort of pep talk to make you feel good about carrying the round. If you need a pep talk to make you feel good about carrying the round, then you really should consider carrying something else or learn to be a better shooter.

By the way, you will find quite a few sort of similar affirmations of the 9mm on various boards. You probably don't need a new one.

 

[1911Tuner]

Wax Positive

I dunno Double Naught...I really didn't read that into his thread. Maybe more of a "Please tell me that I haven't made a huge mistake by choosing a 9mm."
Maybe he's read so much pro and con that he doesn't know WHAT to believe, and hoping that he can get enough straight answers on the "pro" side to
make him feel better about it because he's only got one pistol and can't afford to trade for another one. Since we don't know any of these things, we have to make some assumptions and respond to him in the same way as he posed his questions. In a factual and straightforward and honest manner and without making him feel like an idiot for not knowing. That's the High Road way...

 

[Thin Black Line]

LOL, find me an account of a human who got his heart turned to
hamburger and both lungs cut in half and still walked 5 yards. Ok,
I'll settle for sat down and smoked a cigarette.

 

[kbr80]

9mm is just fine for SD. I remember watching a LE video, years ago, out of Texas. A mexican, wired on cocaine, or some other superman drug, took 7 rounds center mass with a 45 ACP. He walked across the street, sat down, and it took him 30 minutes to die.


I will echo the advice from other members, pick a caliber, be it 9mm or whatever, practice, practice, and once you think you are good at putting the round where you want it to go, practice some more.


Shot placement is the key, it trumps everything else.

 

[HD]

you won't find a bigger 45 fan than myself , having said that my bedside gun is a cz p01 with wwb 147jhp's ...
it works , goes bang when it needs to and is cheap to shoot...
no great worries (short of a kodiak)the caliber works , btw i do know of a kodiak killed with a po8 and 124fmj ammo with one shot ...
downside was the bear died so fast it collasped on top of the shooter...
had to roll the bear off the kid before he smothered under 860 lbs of fat and hair ...

 

[1911Tuner]

Beddy-Bye Gun

Hmmm...My "Nightlight" is a short-coupled 12 gauge double with exposed hammers...2-3/4 inch (24 pellets) magnum #4 buckshot in the tubes,
and four big male Collies to sound the second alarm...after the two Labs and the Pit outside provide first alert.

Any takers?

 

[MudPuppy]

So, the real discussion shouldn't be 9mm vs 45, rather 45 vs 12GA. With perspective, that 45 can seem a tad underpowered.



Now that I've got my 44 magnum, I can look down my nose at those "wimpy" 45s. As I've said elsewhere, I'm looking to upgrade that to the 50AE so I can look down my nose at the wimpy 44 magnums.

Seriously, I think the 9mm is a viable choice with the proper ammunition selection and shot placement. It's not my first choice, but that doesn't mean its wrong. (and don't pay attention to the gun snobs!)

 

[Amadeus]

The Back Story Behind This Thread!

I really didn't read that into his thread. Maybe more of a "Please tell me that I haven't made a huge mistake by choosing a 9mm."

Thank you, to everyone for your responses. And thank you 1911Tuner for taking the "high road". Actually you're somewhat close to guessing my motivation. Allow me to divulge the motivation behind this thread.

After many years of shooting and teaching shooting I'm considering applying for CCW. I shoot .45. I love shooting .45. It knocks down steel plates with ease and blasts big holes in paper. My co-instructor loves .45. My shooting friends love .45. Everywhere I look within the shooting world people tell me .45 is the real shooter's round.

Moreover I love the ergonomics and appearance of a 1911. However, I don't completely trust my beloved 1911.

It's just a little too ammo sensitive and jams just a little too often. I have also discovered some other very subjective issues having to do with speed of presentation, disengagement of safety, and single handed follow up shots. So I think for MY CCW purposes, I will be better suited with a compact 9mm. Something along the lines of a Sig or HK (glocks don't fit my hand comfortably).

The problem is that I am wary about going back to 9mm. I've been fed a steady diet of .45 hype for long enough to begin believing that 9mm is .... well.... underpowered. So I look for some real answers from the wisdom of my high road family. I do so by asking what you folks have experienced with the round and why YOU feel good about it. Maybe your answers will allow me to see that 9mm is a decent round after all. Then again there is the chance that a good portion of you come back with a unanimous dislike for it. Either way my choice for .45 would be validated and confirmed. Or my confidence in 9mm would be raised.

Again. I thank everyone who has participated. Your wisdom and experience has been helpful.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Now that I've got my 44 magnum, I can look down my nose at those "wimpy" 45s. As I've said elsewhere, I'm looking to upgrade that to the 50AE so I can look down my nose at the wimpy 44 magnums.

Neither of which is a good defensive round. Bullets are just too heavily constructed. I own both (and a .454) and would never consider using them for SD/HD unless I had exhausted all of my 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm, .38, .357, etc. Same reason I don't use my .375 Ultra on deer.

 

[CAnnoneer]

Neither of which is a good defensive round. Bullets are just too heavily constructed. I own both (and a .454) and would never consider using them for SD/HD unless I had exhausted all of my 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm, .38, .357, etc. Same reason I don't use my .375 Ultra on deer.

So, what's the point of them then? Coolness factor?
I figured as much.
I believe two .22 holes are better than one 9mm, and two 9mm holes are better than one .45.

 

[Joe45acp]

If you want a to carry a 9mm ( I carry S&W 547 9mm as one of the guns on my CCW) I would use the Double Tap 147 grain load.

I also have on my permit my TR SP 1911A1 .45 acp and a 3" S&W model 66 357 mag. I never feel under powered with any of them. I love them all and know that if it comes down to needing them, any of them will do the job.

I carry the 9mm or the 357 most of the time and the 45 main in the cooler months.

Joe

 

[mondocomputerman]

I was at the indoor range last weekend and tried out some +p+ rounds (Winchester RA9TA Ranger Talon) for the first time. I didn't notice hardly any difference in recoil. It is a little louder. Compared to the winchester value pack FMJ's, the Ranger Talons had less muzzle flash. The Ranger Talons have MUCH less muzzle flash than some old Winchester Silvertip HP's I had from the 80's. Seems like they have improved their powders over the years.

 

[The_Antibubba]

Not to muddy the waters, but...

Have you considered the .40? From what I hear, it's a very effective round,
and the pistols that use it are very similar (if not identical) to 9mm.

 

[sm]

Good shooters are made - not born - Fred Misseldine

1911Tuner, Dr, Rob and others have touched on this...

When assisting, teaching CCW folks, especially those new to firearms and not all were ladies... folks found the .40 cal very "sharp" in recoil.

We had a variety of guns, in various platforms, calibers, and included different stocks on the same gun. For example six Model 10s - exact, except for different stocks ( gun fit to shooter).

Many found the "push: of a .45ACP very easy to shoot, granted the ergos of the 1911 helped, then again the .45ACP round was also fired from Sigs, and Rugers too.

.38spls were often chosen as CCWs for reasons of being affordable due to used Police Trade ins, affordable ammo to practice with ( includes someone in family reloaded .38spl) , shome just shot a revolver better, others Budget again...no magazines and such to be dependent to have a gun run.

9mm : This round was a HUGE favorite! Used Police trade in 3913s were available then, extra mags, holsters too. Granted a lot of folks sure were spoiled by the BHPs we had...they shot the BHP very very well.

Now understand many of what I did was with new shooters in a special kind of way. Single Ladies of various ages, victims of Domestic Abuse, Rape Victims, or attepted, sexual assault.

Elderly Gentleman too, many older...fixed budgets...you get the idea.

Some got the revolver first up due to a need right then. The 9mm often was next gun...revolver for back up.

Glocks, Rugers, 3913s, in 9mm ...well whatever these folks found they shot best , could afford, by golly they shot extremly well with them! Affordable ammo, recoil magagment, allowed these folks to shoot and practice a LOT.

Some hated to admit they really liked the .45 but the ammo price difference...

I shushed them, these folks were being responsible and shooting and CCW-ing.

All it took was let them see the targets of the Weekend CCW-er with a gun he was afraid to carry for fear of getting scratched, in a sharp recoiling caliber , loading and/or one expensive and hard to get OTC.

Gimme one of my gals with used 3913 , Glock 26 and WWB Personal Defence Ammo any day.

 

[ChuckP]

9mm ammo, $5.97/box (50) at Wal-Mart

At least for the 115 grain target grade stuff. Your choice of Winchester or CCI at that price. That's why I chose a 9mm (Taurus PT92) for my first handgun. Can get plenty of practice for small $$.

Think my next purchase may be .45ACP but for now I'm having a blast at the range with my little "popgun" with the 17 round magazines.

BTW: I keep a mag loaded with hollowpoints in my nightstand.

 

[spooney]

wow! must not be a lot of legal calibers then! They go off bullet diameter right? then the obvious conclusion would be a load of other ammos would be illegal. Even big ones like 8mm mauser, 30 - 06, 7mm mag etc.

or do they go off grain weight?

There are different rules for handgun chamberings and rifle chamberings. I believe the way it works for handguns is with cartridge length.

 

[Geno]

I would suggest a real-world test to rate the round

I would poll the military people who you know, specifically any who have experience with both 9mm and .45 ACP. Ask them what are their experiences, if they will talk.

Your statement regarding one-handed follow-ups clarifies for me why you do not pursue the .45 GAP.

I have another question though, and I suspect that 1911tuner might back me up here. Why not tune and properly time your 1911?

Part of the beauty of the 1911 is that it can be "tuned", it has timing, and when they all come together, it is one of the sweetest, most reliable rounds and firearm formats the world has ever witnessed. For that quicker follow-up, reduce the load, reduce the springs' poundage and have them all "tuned and timed", including the magazine springs. It all has to come together like a symphony. However, you also reduce the velocity, and ergo reduce the "knock-down power".

To the issue of the 9mm underpower issue, I think patrol120 clarified it best following his run-in with a rogue dog about 4 weeks back. Read his post regarding one-shot stops...they don't exist short of a head shot, and them, by no means could a 9mm be considered under-powered.

With the vast array of ammunition that we have today, we shootists can mix and match for any situation, a "Pow'r Ball" followed by a hollow point, followed by an FMJ if you want. We have ammo that will not exit drywall all the way to ammo that will exit darned near anything.

Having stated all of this, and me suspecting that you personally are aware of 100% of everything I have said, it all comes down to one issue: what are you comfortable with? Tradition and habit for you, for me, and for many others is the .45 ACP. We believe in big, heavy bullets. Others who were raised with the 9mm camp call us "pumpkin throwers". That's okay, I wouldn't want to be hit by a pumpkin anymore than I would want to be hit by a 9mm. Choices, choices.

For my part, I now carry both a 9mm and a .45 for CCW. The .45 is my primary, the 9mm is my secondary. I figure that one has big powerful hollow points for up close. The 9mm has massive rounds, up to magazines of 33 if I need in my G17.

The combination of .45 power and 9mm massive rounds, gives me AWESOME comfort.

Doc2005