A couple of Uberti 45 Colt questions...

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Orion8472

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I have considered getting an Uberti El Patron Competition revolver for a while now, but have a couple of questions.

1. Do you have to use "lower power cowboy loads" with the Uberti?

2. Where can you fnd the BEST prices for 45 Colt [that can be safely used in this revolver]?

Thanks for your input.
 
It uses any standard commercially-made .45 Colt ammunition to SAAMI pressures.
No Buffalo Bore or CorBon hot stuff, but the rest is fair game.

The only real difference in the model is the springs & hammer used & those don't affect its strength.

As for ammunition pricing, do some internet searching & see what you can find.
None will be cheap.
Denis
 
If you're into any shooting game, learn to reload! You can get everything you need for under $100. The cheapest .45 Colt factory ammo I've found is going for $36.00 for a box of 50. At that price, you'll recover your money in no time at all.
 
Knock on wood, my El Patron is one of the few guns of any make that I have bought that didn't require a trip back to the source for rework. It shoots beautifully and looks fantastic. I have been shooting near max cowboy loads but understand my Tier II Redhawk loads would be okay too.
 
I use one as my main carry. It's diet is "heavy" .45 Colt loads of mine . I like it very much. I replaced the wires with flats (tuned of course ) . The hammer draw is right at 3 1/2 lbs. and trigger pull is 2 1/2 lbs. Such a sweet S.A.!! I also have a .45 acp cyl for it. Great combo!!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
 
What are Tier II Redhawk loads?

A step above Tier I (Cowboy) and a step down from Tier III (Ruger only"). Supposedly, New Vaqueros can shoot it, but my Redhawk is the one with clear support for doing so.
 
Between Cowboy & Ruger-Only is just standard velocity commercial load equivalents.
Never heard those referred to as Tier II. :)
Denis
 
OK, maybe we're not using the same definitions. :)

"Cowboy" loads are relatively low-powered, something along the lines of 250 grains at 700 FPS.

"Standard" .45 Colt loads are roughly 250 grains at 800-950 FPS.

"Ruger-Only" loads go up from 250+ at 1100+ FPS.

These are rough categories, there is wiggle room in both weights & velocities.

The Uberti can easily handle anything in the "Standard" category for quite a while.
It CAN handle heavier loads, but those will tend to be hard on the base pin, and if you push it too far you can drive the ratchet teeth back into the frame's standing breech.
Push the gun too hard for too long and you'll accelerate wear.
Denis
 
Brian Pierce in Handloader and Rifle magazines has written fairly extensively about the .45 Colt, and divides loads among:

SAAMI standard -- 14,000 CUP

.45 Colt +P -- 16.000 CUP

.45 ACP level -- 19,000 CUP

.45 ACP +P level -- 23,000 CUP

And Ruger only -- 30,000 to 32,000 CUP.

In my Colt New Service, I tend to load to about 19,000 CUP and that's a fairly stout load.
 
"Cowboy" may not be "standard" by some definition, but it is what is most common in stores, i.e. standard. I do appreciate precision in terminology though. It depends whether the situation calls for being pedantic, probably most of the time with reloaders. But I don't think we can disallow a term, simply because we don't recall encountering it before.
 
As far as looking for ammo, you can try ammoseek or wikiarms. Myself, I reload for my Uberti Chisolm (all steel version of the Cattleman ). 30 grains of Goex 3F under a 250 grain LRNFP. Lots of smoke. It's a tightly made piece - very little powder residue gets into its inner workings. I did lose a base pin though, so I look for that now when shooting it.
 
Cowboy loads are manufactured by makers such as Winchester & Black Hills in distinctive boxes that set it apart primarily for CAS uses.

Those, again, are LOW-powered loads, below standard velocities, and in the case of the .45 Colt, much milder than what the real cowboys (or anybody else who carried the caliber in the old West) actually used.

"Cowboy" loads is not a term for ammunition used in a "cowboy" gun, it was coined FOR those low-powered competition loads.

It's important to make the distinction, so people understand the discussion in the context of the original question here.

I rarely see cowboy loads for sale anywhere, around where I live, in the most densely populated area of my state.

Realgun,
I didn't & still don't understand what you mean by "near max cowboy loads".
By general-use & industry-recognized terminology, cowboy loads are low-powered & low-velocity.
"Near max" is a vague term without any real meaning, applied to cowboy loads.
That'd just indicate you're getting out of cowboy load velocities & up into "regular" velocities for the .45 Colt.

Without getting far more esoteric than the answer needs to be- that Uberti can handle .45 Colt loads indefinitely with cowboy stuff, and for a long time with standard .45 Colt commercial ammunition in the caliber.

In the interests of simplification, without trying to apply Tier Labeling Theory and debate what falls into where, anything Winchester, Federal, Remington, CCI/Speer, Black Hills, and Hornady makes in the caliber is fair game for the Uberti.
Getting into CorBon & Buffalo Bore's hotter stuff is not recommended.

If he wants to explore reloading, that can open up a whole new field for discussion.
He asked for commercial sources, so reloading is not germane at the moment. :)
Denis
 
I didn't & still don't understand what you mean by "near max cowboy loads".

It seemed simple enough to imply ammo that would be okay in a "cowboy" gun, another vague term, but who doesn't know what that means, and that it is to be inferred as a modern SAA type or maybe a Ruger New Vaquero? Why is there this need for pedantry?

That said, you provide good information here, which I appreciate, although I might not accept so much editing of the language I use.

Again, virtually all but the Hornady 45 Colt ammo I see in stores, some of which I have tired, is clearly the mild stuff with virtually no recoil when you shoot it. I have some 250 gr ammo I bought labelled Mountaineer that shoots fairly stoutly in my Redhawk, but I had to mail order that. I have a box of Buffalo Bore and tried a couple rounds in the Redhawk...wow!. My point is that I am pretty aware first hand of the range of 45 Colt ammo.
 
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Pedantry has its place. :)
"Cowboy ammo" is not synonymous with "ammo used in cowboy guns".

Since there IS such a wide range of pressures involved in the .45 Colt, it's important to get terminology clearly worked out so we all know what we're talking about.

Telling Orion you push "cowboy" loads to near max can confuse people reading this, and it doesn't really mean anything in terms of answering his question.

Black Hills, as an example, lists their 250-grain cowboy .45 Colt load at 725 FPS, well under most commercial "standard" velocities.
Saying you push that "cowboy" load to near max is meaningless in terms of what Orion's Uberti can handle.

There's no clear dividing line in the industry between where "cowboy" ends & "standard" begins, so you could be saying you push the cowboy load to nearly standard velocity, or you push it to nearly max pressures for the caliber.

Nearly standard velocity/pressure won't harm the Uberti, max pressures for the caliber would.

Saying you push velocities to near max cowboy loads is far from clear if you're trying to say you push your loads to near max for a single-action Colt-pattern revolver. :)
Denis
 
Pedantry has its place. :)
"Cowboy ammo" is not synonymous with "ammo used in cowboy guns".

However, "cowboy" ammo IS synonymous with "ammo used in cowboy guns". One quotation mark placement makes the difference.

Another way I think of cowboy ammo is ammo for which I don't need my Redhawk. I am not about to start referring to ammo by a list of specs (bullet, powder, velocity and pressure, etc.)
 
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Ok,
can someonly tell me what is a "cowboy " gun?

Never seen such a mountain out of a mole hill !! DPris is right. Cowboy loads are low power loads used by CAS shooters so that they have faster recovery shot to shot.

Your "cowboy " guns are as vague as the ammo you are trying to describe.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
 
What a confusing thread.

The first is the cowboy load. Unless you are a "purist" and insist on pushing a 250gr 45 Colt round to around 900 fps with blackpowder, cowboy loads are much lighter. We use 165 gr, 180 gr, and, maybe 200 gr. We push them to around 600 fps-700fps.

I use a 38 with a 105 gr and 3.2 gr American Select to get around 795 FPS. I use first generation Blackhawks (three screws). 125s are also popular with velocities around 700 fps.

The second is the reference to Ruger Only loads and the terminology to what Ruger handgun. The new model Vaquero will handle loads equal to the Uberti. The NM Vaquero is a second generation Vaquero and the first generation Vaquero IS the revolver to use with Ruger Only loads. Along with the second generation of the BlackHawk.
Some had better research the Ruger models of the Blackhawk and the Vaquero before you start stuffing Ruger Only loads in them.

And before the discussion heads in a familiar direction, all we have to do is ring steel.
 
I think at this point Orion's question has been answered sufficiently. :)
Denis
 
Howdy

First off, all Italian firearms are proofed in government run proof houses, to European pressure standards, which are actually slightly more stringent than American standards. ANY Italian revolver chambered for 45 Colt and imported into this country will be safe to shoot with SAAMI Max loads. For 45 Colt that is 14,000 PSI (not CUP).

Look it up:

http://www.saami.org/

That should settle the OP's question.

Second: Safety of any particular ammunition in any firearm depends on PRESSURE, not bullet weight and velocity. That is why SAAMI lists pressure as the governing factor. Not velocity and bullet weight. Velocity and bullet weight is not a definitive way to define the pressure achieved by any particular load. Two loads using the same bullet pushed to the same velocity by different powders may exhibit significantly different pressures.

Third: There is no official standard for Cowboy ammunition. Some manufacturers define it by bullet weight and velocity, but there is no official SAAMI standards regarding Cowboy Ammunition. It is what ever the particular manufacturer chooses. Yes, they are usually lower velocity loads designed to generate less recoil than standard loads for quicker repeat shots.

Fourth: It is actually very easy to define Cowboy guns. Here is what the Single Action Shooting Society has to say about it:


"REVOLVER REQUIREMENTS

Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, their approved replicas, and the SASS approved single action adjustable sight
revolvers are the only revolvers approved for use in SASS main match competition. The rules relative to SASS approved revolvers depend upon
the competition category in which one participates. Sights are a major factor for determining in which category a revolver may be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of revolver and ammunition be used. Please see the shooting categories for further information. No more than two main match revolvers may be carried to the firing line.

REVOLVER CALIBERS

• Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber.

• Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt.

• Standard velocity .22 caliber rimfire ammunition is allowed within the Buckaroo Category only.

• Although the .32 caliber revolvers and .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers are legal, they may not be powerful enough to handle all reactive targets."

*******************************

Notice that no specific revolvers are named. Instead, the features of the guns are defined. So an antique Colt, a modern replica, and a Ruger are all SASS Legal 'cowboy guns'. Cowboy ammunition is designed to be safe to shoot in the lowest common denominator, the antique Colt and the modern replica.
 
I asked the same questions basically. Got some good feedback here. That was before I started handloading. Glad I do now. It was the 45 Long Colt that got me started reloading. Now I have at least 13 different cartridges I have dies for and have loaded 5000 cartridges in the past year with a single stage RCBS Rockchucker press.
The 45 LC was rather easy to learn on and I am completely happy shooting my 3 45 colt Uberti firearms well under maximum loads. No need for stout loads for me as I have other guns for that. It is my understanding that factory 45 Long Colt ammo is OK in the 1873 Uberti revolvers and I have shot them. I find it more enjoyable to take it down a notch.
I have 100 or so reloads that are max and I am going to shoot them off in my least expensive Uberti cattleman and be done with them unless I get out with a fella that has a Ruger Vaquero or a S&W 25 and we'll shoot them off out of his just to save mine the wear and tear.

Late Edit: After reading over all these posts again ... I just had to change my signature.
 
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<snip>

Second: Safety of any particular ammunition in any firearm depends on PRESSURE, not bullet weight and velocity. That is why SAAMI lists pressure as the governing factor. Not velocity and bullet weight. Velocity and bullet weight is not a definitive way to define the pressure achieved by any particular load. Two loads using the same bullet pushed to the same velocity by different powders may exhibit significantly different pressures.

<snip>

Glad someone posted this. Low power and low pressure are NOT mutually inclusive.

35W
 
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