A Couple "What ifs... ?"

[Shawnee]

We explore Outer Space. We have developed armaments for War that shoot around corners and wreck entire regions. We have developed the Internet. We monitor Liberals and other criminals via sattelite.

How can it be that we cannot come up with a tubular magazine that can handle cartridges with pointed bullets ?

Realizing that silhouette shooters compete with single-shot 30/30 handguns at 200 meters, AND realizing most hunters with centerfire rifles are hunting deer, AND realizing that most of them are shot (and should be shot) within 200yds, AND realizing that is where the excellent and highly "shootable" 30/30 really shines, AND realizing "fast third shots" are unneeded or ineffective 99.999999999999999999999999% of the time - especially among responsible hunters, AND realizing that bringing the safe use of bullets of better B.C. and varied construction to the 30/30 would make it an even doubly excellent cartridge for deer/antelope/hogs/bear, - even Elk, etc. with improved trajectory, range and terminal performance....

What if Marlin and/or Winchester (or Mossberg or Henry) came up with an inexpensive plug that reduced the cartridge capacity of their lever-action rifles to TWO - one in the chamber and one in the tube???
All it would need to be would be an aluminum bar -fitted with a tip like the one already in use to cushion the bullet tip against deformation in the magazine. If it couldn't be dropped in by the user it could be made "captive" or as a "gunsmith job".

An alternative would be designing the magazine so the shoulder of each cartridge inserted would be resting against some type if plastic "collar" or "spacer tabs" that moved with the spring and kept a quarter-inch or five-eights' inch of space between the bullet tip and the head of the cartridge in front of it.

What could responsible hunters not like about this easy, effective design solution ?

 

[Vonderek]

How can it be that we cannot come up with a tubular magazine that can handle cartridges with pointed bullets ?

What's wrong with Hornady Leverevolution ammunition to answer the problem?

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Vonderek...

Price/availability of the ammo, for one.

And if my idea were put into use - the Marlin and Winchester might be able to safely digest some other calibers too - namely the .243 or .250 Savage or .257 Roberts or maybe even something like the .25 WSSM or even the 6.5 Swede.

 

[Regolith]

I've heard of a lot of handloaders using spitzer bullets in .30-30 and simply loading one in the tube and one in the mag. No reason to reduce the magazine capacity for that.

Frankly, it'd be better to give the gun a box magazine similar to a bolt action. That would give it a better than 2 round capacity, while still allowing the use of pointed bullets. Several models of lever actions were made this way in the past, but I don't know of any modern production guns that do it like that, which kind of sucks. My father has a Sako Finnwolf that was built this way, with a detachable 3 round magazine, chambered in .308. Really handy rifle.

 

[HM2PAC]

The Browning Levers are quite nice. No tubular magazine, but you can get them in your beloved .243Win.

The old Savage 99"s are out there if you can find them. Again, no tubular mag, but spire points can be used.

 

[Shawnee]

Regolith...

Loading just two is (imho) a good idea but I haven't suggested it because I'm not anxious to have someone try to blame one of my posts for "causing" them to do something that resulted in an accident because they couldn't count to 1 correctly.

The drop-box magazines are nice on lever guns too and I agree they should be more common. I bought one of my sons a BLR in .243 several years ago and haven't been able to talk him out of it yet !

Had a Savage 99 in .243 years ago and am still kicking myself for selling it.

 

[Jim Watson]

Have you ever seen a Remington Model 14 or 141 pump with the "rifled" magazine tube to keep the bullet noses off the primers? Looks like a business opportunity for you, since you state the need so well.

On the other hand, a gunzine writer once shot various calibers with roundnose and spitzer bullets and found negligible difference in trajectory and accuracy to 200 yards.

Most of the gimmick bullets of today are workarounds to try to get a spitzer bullet to perform as well on game as a heavy roundnose softpoint.

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Pricing and Availability of the Hornady?

Give it some time. It will come down with time (comparatively). All new things are relatively expensive when they first come out.

 

[JonB]

Had a Savage 99 in .243 years ago and am still kicking myself for selling it.

Got mine sitting in the closet behind me ;-) It was my first rifle my dad gave me when I was like 12 or 13.

I need to refinish the stock, but it general its in great shape.

 

[Shawnee]

"Most of the gimmick bullets of today are workarounds to try to get a spitzer bullet to perform as well on game as a heavy roundnose softpoint."


Would agree to a large extent - the thrust behind pointy bullets has been to flatten trajectory and lengthen range - but that was really motivated by the military's desire to kill enemy soldiers. Then when Peace has broken out there was money to be made by hyping and selling bolt-action war guns to hunters even though those hunters' real needs were better served by handy rifles with sufficient power using simply designed bullets that already did a fine job on game.

Would opine the best benefit offered by pointed bullets is found in the varmint fields.

 

[rangerruck]

for some reason, popularity, the three mentioned above, are not made anymore except the browning, and it is not more popular due to cost. the savage 99 is proly not made anymore, due to cost, and the old remmys, with the barbershop pole feed tube, well let's face it, were UGLY!!!! but there are 3 rifles right there, designed to hold lots of 30.30 type pointy ammo, in a feed tube situation, or a wind up tube.

 

[Shawnee]

Agreed, Rangeruck...

But I figure all the gunscribbling industry puppets braying all their drivel about needing bolt-action magnums for all those daily 1000-yd. shots on charging grizzly bears - and their sanctimonious ho-humming of the 30/30s et al. for the passed 70 years has been a THE major factor in the UNpopularity of the lever guns in sensible calibers - not any real deficit on the part of the 336 or 94 or 99 rifles and carbines.

 

[Art Eatman]

Aw, Shawnee, worrying about gunzine hype, or put-downs of old stuff, is just wasted psychic energy. Granted, gurus like you and me can sit back and feel all smug and superior, but that's just as much of a waste of psychic energy as the other.

Anyhow:

No hype was needed to sell military surplus rifles. The price differential with commercial enabled a lot of people to have good rifles who otherwise might not have bought anything at all.

As far as overly powerful, the percentage increase of an '06 over a thutty-thutty ain't that much, given that back then there was only about a 500 ft/sec difference. And the Krag and .300 H&H were attractive to many.

And then there is the basic American penchant: Bigger is better. That's danged near a genetic thing in this country, no matter what anybody believes about "big enough".

Start out with a .22 Hornet, and here comes Lyle Kilbourn with his K-Hornet. There's always gonna be a P.O. Ackley or Roy Weatherby around, somewhere. That's what we are as a people: Idea folks and experimenters.

Pointed bullets give flatter trajectories. So? Flatter trajectories mean fewer misses on Bambi or prairie poodles. That's about as much reason as is needed.

"Need" is a function of viewpoint. Like Jeff Cooper offered, "A Navajo sees no need for fishing tackle." Or water skis, for that matter.

 

[JesseL]

What could responsible hunters not like about this easy, effective design solution ?

To play Devil's advocate for a moment, that is the wrong question.

The right question is: What could liability focused corporate lawyers not like about this design solution?

Also, what would be the advantage in revamping both the .30-30 and the guns that fire it, when you can get the same advantages and more by creating a whole new round?

 

[goon]

Realisitically, out to about 200 yards just about any centerfire round will still strike a paper plate with a 100 yard zero, whether it's shooting pointed nose bullets or not. This is why in spite of Shawnee's hate for the 30'06, he's actually more than less right about being just as well served with a "lesser" cartridge.
When I get done messing with my 30-30 I'm probably just going to zero it for 150 yards and leave it at that. It will do fine for my purposes.

I also agree with the assessment about the Remington 141 rifles with their twisted magazine tubes but I don't know if it would work with a Marlin or Winchester as an aftermarket part. IIRC, the magazine tube slides back and forth with those rifles. At some point you're going to have to have your rounds straighten out as they're feeding into the action and that will probably end up with nose of a bullet against a primer.
Just unenlightened yammering and maybe someone could figure out a way around it. If so, a magazine tube is a pretty easy thing to replace.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Senator...

I guess this might not be the point where I should divulge that the three barrels I have for my Contender handgun are: .22lr, .22 Hornet, and 30/30.

 

[AmishFury]

if the cases are rimmed the point of the bullet will point off center when it's in the tube therefore a tubular magazine could handle pointed bullets just fine if the cases are rimmed

 

[ziggy222]

sounds like a job for a rotory magazine.i'm sure levers will be made that way soon.

 

[ThomasT]

The Winchester and Marlin lever guns aren't designed to handle the pressures of the 243 class of cartridges.

If you want better 30-30 loads read some of Paco Kellys loads at www.leverguns.com I think you will find he gets everything out of this round that can be gotten. He also uses spire point bullets with the noses clipped to do this.

When i first started reloading I read all the warnings against using pointy bullets in tube magazines. I loaded a 30-30 case with a new primer and drilled a hole in the top of my workbench that would hold the case. I then took a Remington 150 gr spire point bullet and held it with pliers against the new primer.

I beat that bullet nose flat without ever setting the primer off. I then dropped the case in my gun and cocked the hammer and fired the primer. I suppose that one round could set off another but i believe it would be a real fluke to do so.

I'm not recommending that you try. If I need more power than is available from a 30-30 I have plenty of other guns to get it from.

Also I have shot enough deer to fill up the back of several trucks plus a couple of Elk. Every animal I have shot has been under 95 yards except for one whitetail that I shot at around 250 yards. That shot was made with Shawnees favorite round, the 243. It dropped the second it was hit.