A design with something for everyone.

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Handy

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Been ruminating about this for awhile, and I thought I'd see how people would feel about a new type of autopistol platform that hopefully would offer enough compromises, variations and benefits to make most auto shooters happy (or at least not mad.)


The gun would have 3 important sub components with innovations in each:

Barrel/slide: I'm thinking a mechanically delayed blowback system with a fixed barrel. While not a typical setup, this system has proved immensely durable and accurate on military weapons ranging from 9mm pistols to 10mm subguns and .308 machineguns. It works and offers more accuracy for the money than a recoil system. Past systems have been expensive due to the complexity, but a new system with just two moving parts is possible.

The barrel/slides would be caliber specific and offered in all the standard combat calibers including the heavies, like 10mm and .45 Super. Each caliber would have a specific mechanical delay, recoil spring and slide mass - no forcing too much bullet into too little gun. Different slide/barrel lengths would be offered to allow anything from a long barrel hunter to a compact - see frames.


Trigger system: I tend to favor safetyless DA/SA systems, but understand the limitations of a heavy first shot. So I propose the gun be carried in DA (ten lbs. pull), but have a thumb lever that can be used to cock ONE of the dual mainsprings. As only one mainspring would be cocked by this cocking lever, the lever would not have very great resistance, but would remove half the spring pressure from the trigger, lowering it to around 6 to 7 lbs. All follow up shots would be SA; both springs and the hammer would be cocked. The cocking lever (once the springs are compressed) becomes a decocking lever, lowering either or both mainsprings to DA.

That may sound complicated, but doesn't need to be. Several other systems already use two mainsprings (USP LEM, Para DAO), and the dual use lever and cocking lever have already been seen in a variety of forms.

While not exactly cocked and locked, this system offers the Cond. 1 shooter a similar manual and light first shot, without the liability of a true safety or reliance on a very light carry trigger. The gun is also carried with no inertial parts cocked.


Modular gripframe: The main component of the "gun for everyone". By making the steel receiver consist of the rails, trigger system and frontstrap ONLY, you have a lot of options. All mags would have the mag release tab on the front of the mag where it contacts the front strap. By not having any built in side or back panels, the frame could be made to accomodate any shape of mag by installing the appropriate wrap around grip/magwell. Mated with the correct top end, a small and short grip unit would fit a single stack 9mm mag - making for a small pistol. Switch the top end and the grip - the gun is now a hi-cap 10mm.

The grips would be single piece molded plastic and cost less than ten dollars. Going from a 16 round 9mm to a 7 round 9mm would involve nothing more than removing the grip screw, sliding the grip off the frame and replacing it and the mag appropriately. Complete caliber changes would be the top end, grip and mag.



Obviously, this would only be a good idea if it is quality, works and isn't grossly expensive. But it could be done for a profit. The company need only build one frame for a whole line of pistols. Most top end parts would interchange. The only variety would be the grip frames (which are dirt cheap) and the mags.

The consumer gets a gun that can wear many hats, is as accurate as a revolver, very safe and simple for carry and is an expandable system - no need to ditch the gun if your caliber of preference changes, or your carry needs.


Feedback? Thanks!!
 
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Jusat out of curiosity, why should one design please everyone?

Handy.... are you anti-variety? :D
 
Handy,

I think you've got a very interesting concept there. It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into it. Have you designed any of it? At first glance at least, it sounds completely do-able.

I might add my two cents; if you make the trigger a non-pivoting trigger (like the 1911), I think that would contribute greatly to the overall shootability of the piece.

I think it's a great concept.

--Leibster
 
Thanks for your input, all.

Leibster, in deference to your suggestion, I don't think a sliding trigger is appropriate in a DA action. The increased spring resistance is likely to cause binding. Also (and more importantly) the modular grip would leave no space for such a mechanism. I want all the mainsprings and sear up above the grip so the mag well can be a variety of sizes.

9x19,

I imagine you were a little kidding, but that is fair. Part of what I'm getting at is that the basic requirements for any auto aren't really much different. If you can field a design that is useful in a variety of situations, it's probably a very sound design. It also frees up the consumer's cash and decreases the training necessary.
 
Handy,

Fair enough... but it sounds as though you've been turned by the THRWives Collective. :D

I'm a bit leary of the pre-cock lever... Glocks have rather turned me off to a pistol with a miriad of external controls, as most seem wholly superflous to me now.

Good luck with the concept.
 
9x19,

If that lever cocks, decocks and is the slide release, the gun won't have any more levers than a Glock, and a safer trigger.


Andrew,

The slidey trigger won't work with the modular grip. I'm not sure why people go on about non-pivot triggers so. Sure the 1911 is good, but so are most target pistols, all of which pivot.
 
mechanically delayed blowback system with a fixed barrel

I think your butting heads against Issac Newton here. Go can have small caliber and small weight - a lot of us do in .22 and .380. Or you can have large and heavy in a machine/pistol/gun. The larger the caliber (recoil) the bigger the sliding (recoil absorbing) parts have to be.

The interchangable, tops and and bottoms ends and magazines - that sounds like a NATO meeting to me. But, I could never understand why Dan Wesson doesn't sell interchangable cylinders, so anyone could afford a multi-caliber revolver.

I'm not trying to be negative, keep on thinking.

Elliot
 
Although Dan designed his revolvers wiht drop-in parts, even on the DW, the cylinder hand is the one part that must be hand-fit to the extractor star.

That's why there are no inter-changeable cylinders.
 
E357,

I refer you to the HK P9S, MAB PA15 and the Benelli B76. Also check out the P7 and Steyr GB. This stuff works - not just a theory.
 
A slideytrigger could be made to work with this concept. the trigger bow would have to be in two pieces, though.


I'd not mind a pivoting trigger and a manual safety.


IMHO, DA is a design flaw.
 
Yeah, well, it's a much older and wider used system than Cond. 1. It is and has been the primary issue to both military and police for most of this century. So I don't think I'm entirely off base in selecting it as the basis.

But like I said, if you're used to disengaging a safety, use those same motor skills to precock one of the mainsprings. The plus side is that the gun will still fire if you fail to work the thumb thingy.
 
hrrm.


you could make two frame units; one that's single action, one that's double action.

then you'll have people arguing whether their single action pistol configured for single stack .45 magazines is better than the same pistol in double action with double stack 9mm magazines.
 
Well, if the jet set want it, converting such a gun to SA only is certainly possible.

CZ offers a crippled model 75 like that.;)
 
Jeez, man. It's not an Airsoft!

Back to your magical/tactical world!
 
The barrel would be removable, but fixed to the frame when assembled via a spring loaded wedge fit.
 
Okay, I'll pick it apart. :D

Barrel/slide: While a mechanically-delayed blowback system with only two moving parts is attractive, I think you may be overlooking the one big disadvantage of such a system: pokey extraction and the associated tendency towards Type 3 malfunctions. What I would like to see is a delayed-blowback system in which the breech remains locked (no movement) until the chamber pressure has dropped to levels permitting easy extraction (such a system would be cleaner and more efficent, as well.)

Trigger system: If it's not a single trigger, I wouldn't buy it. I have never understood the logic behind making the first shot (the most important one) harder to hit with.

I prefer single actions, and never in three years of serious shooting have failed to hit the safety on demand. An acceptable comprimise would be a Glock-style trigger (i.e. a self-decocking DA) with a motionless release and very shallow link.

Modular gripframe: Now we're talking. A system like this would be a major selling point for me.

- Chris
 
Chris,

Appreciate the constructive criticism.

On Delayed blowback, I'm not sure where you're coming from on the "pokey" thing. I would not describe the extraction of any of my 4 DB firearms as anything but "brisk".

Also, I had thought type 3 malf. was a failure to extract followed by a double feed. If I have that right, this type of malfunction is nearly impossible with all blowback firearms due to the primary extraction - they are self extracting, forcing the slide back as the case pushes itself out of the chamber. The extractor is unnecessary. And if the case doesn't extract, the slide doesn't move, so no jam, per se.

Am I misunderstanding your concern?


As to the SA thing, take a look at my discussion with Andrew. It could be done, but I was looking to break some new ground, and this system would meet the Cond. 1 folks half way.
 
fascinating concept gun

But back to this replacable fixed barrel with a springed wedge to hold it in.

It doesn't sound truly fixed to me. It just sounds like another way to do a cammed or linked barrel concept. Because technically there would always be some play in the parts right.

I like the concept but I just don't think you are gonna get true fixed barrel accuracy.

Another thing is that you are gonna have to design the grip frame so that the barrel can link up the largest possible caliber making it much wider the is needed for the smaller rounds.

Keep working on this though you may be on to something.

-bevr
 
I think the spring loaded wedge thing can give the equivalent to a interference fit with no shake to it. Frame width would have to be no more at the "throat" end than say a G36 Glock. Great concepts here, may be a little tricky in some details.
 
Handy -

Okay, let me go into a bit more detail about DB extraction.

In a blowback firearm, the expanding gases from the propellant expand in all directions. They expand forward, pushing the bullet down the barrel; backward, pushing the case out of the chamber; they also push outward, forcing the case against the inside of the chamber. This outward expansion of the case causes a large amount of friction, which leads to slow, sticky extraction. It also leads to the very real possibility of a case head seperation, since the case head is mechanically locked to the boltface by the extractor. It is also (in some guns) possible for the extractor to slip over the cartridge rim, leaving the case stuck in the chamber and setting up one gold-plated SOB of a type 3 malfunction.

In most delayed blowback firearms (the HK G3 is a case in point,) the designers try to minimize this problem by cutting flutes into the chamber. These flutes allow some propellant to bleed into the chamber, helping to equalizing the pressure inside and outside of the case. This helps prevent the case from sticking in the chamber. Problem is, those flutes tear up the brass, and are absolutely filthy.

While I agree that a fixed-barrel system has some signifigant advantages over a tilting-barrel or rotary lock (especally in pistols,) I would like to see some method of holding the breech fixed in place until the chamber pressure has dropped a bit; just enough for the brass to contract and allow for easier extraction.

As to the trigger: Perhaps I'm picking nits, but I see anything more than about a 4-5# trigger pull as a serious liability in a fighting handgun. But then, my standards for combat accuracy are quite a bit more rigid than most, so YMMV.

I wonder if it would be possible to use a cam lever to compress both mainsprings before the shot? This would make the gun shoot almost exactly like an SA, while allowing the DA fans both a decocking switch (something I find nice, too) and a heavy first shot. Also, this would still allow carry with no internal parts under tension. Kind of like an H&K P7, but change the frontstrap lever to a thumb lever...

- Chris
 
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