A different kind of hollow point ammo for pistol caliber carbines? Soft point ammo?

[peacebutready]

If I'm not mistaken, hollow point ammo shot through pistol caliber carbines frequently do not penetrate as much as fired from a pistol due to the carbine's higher velocity causing the bullet to mushroom out quickly and thus the parachute effect occurring.

The above said, should there be hollow point ammo specifically for pistol cal carbines with a thicker jacket so it doesn't mushroom out too quickly and thus penetrates sufficiently?

I heard of soft point ammo for pistol cal carbines but haven't read anything about their performance through a medium like ballistic gel.

 

[Jason_W]

During some informal tests with a .357 mag carbine a few years back, I found that with a sufficiently heavy JHP (158-180 grains) usually the frontal section would "blow up" and completely destroy itself, but the stem would continue on quite a ways. JSPs tended to turn into a textbook mushroom.

As expected, hardcast lead flat points left a narrower channel than HPs or JSPs, but penetrated a lot deeper.

 

[Mycin]

Jason, at what distance were you testing? I ask because I've seen several tests on youtube giving similar results, done at relatively close range. I wondered how JSPs would work at, say, 75-100 yards, but haven't gotten around to doing any testing myself.

 

[Jason_W]

When testing with ballistic wax, I was shooting at about 50 yards. When I get home, I can see if I still have any of the data filed on my computer.

Granted, ballistic wax is not calibrated gel. It is a little tougher on bullets than gel and penetration is slightly less than in gel. Still, if I remember correctly, all bullets went at least 12" in the wax.

It's very possible that at an across the room distance, the bullets would have obliterated on impact.

 

[Jason_W]

I remember that the big surprise was the Remington 125 grain JSP. It clocked over 2000 fps according to my chronograph, penetrated way deeper than I expected, and retained a lot of weight. I just don't remember exact numbers.

 

[Mycin]

My research into the same line of thinking as peacebutready brought me to thinking that a heavy-for-caliber Swift A-Frame bullet might be good out of a carbine.

https://www.swiftbullets.com/pages/bullets#heavy-revolver

The heavy, bonded construction should help with weight retention at close ranges and the heavy weight should keep muzzle velocities below the levels where things start to fall apart.

Both CorBon and Federal offer factory loads with the 180gr A-Frame in .357 Mag, with the CorBon claiming about 70fps more muzzle velocity than the Federal loading.

Does anyone have any experience with these? I thought this might be a good hog load.

 

[wally]

If you are really worried about, build up an AR pistol caliber pistol, with brace
Easy to get the same 4-6" barrel you would with a handgun.

 

[peacebutready]

From OP: Looking back at my initial post, I realized I wasn't specific enough. I was referring to the 9mm, .40, and .45 cal carbines for defense.

 

[peacebutready]

About .357 fired through a carbine, I'm somewhat familiar with that. I've seen 158 grain hollow points penetrate less through a carbine than a pistol. The Remington 180 grain h.p. is interesting. It penetrated just as far when fired through the carbine. As Jason noted above the soft points mushroom out in a textbook way. OTOH, I noticed the .357 soft point fired through a revolver didn't mushroom at all.

 

[MAKster]

I suspect that pistol ammo doesn't have enough velocity for soft point ammo to expand like it does in rifle calibers.

 

[Jason_W]

Having an affinity for revolver caliber carbines that most people find baffling, A project idea I've long wanted to tackle is a comprehensive series of more or less controlled terminal performance tests of a wide variety of loads for a variety of rounds.

I'd like to see what bullets do in gel at 10 yards, 25, 50, and 100.

It would cost just so much money.

 

[Glockula]

Hornady makes xtp hp-fp for higher velocity handgun rounds. They have a shallow hp that penetrates better at higher velocity. I have loaded and shot a couple hundred in a Rossi 92. 357 carbine of the 158s. I wouldn't hesitate to kill a deer and expect a pass through on any broad side shot within range.

 

[Mycin]

Jason, I'd love to see the results of such a test.

As peacebutready mentions, JSPs out of a .357 handgun seem to seldom expand in the testing I've seen online. Running various rounds through online ballistic calculators indicates that out of a 16" carbine, by about 100 yards, the Federal 158gr JSP has about the same velocity as it does at the muzzle out of a 6" revolver. I keep my Rossi M92 stoked with these rounds for home defense, because I suspect they'll work great at those distances, but somewhere between the muzzle and 100+ yards, those bullets slow too much to expand reliably. Or at least, that's what the numbers suggest. It'd be great to see real world results.

 

[Mycin]

From OP: Looking back at my initial post, I realized I wasn't specific enough. I was referring to the 9mm, .40, and .45 cal carbines for defense.

I'd like to have a 9mm carbine. I figure I'd just use 147gr rounds in it. According to Ballistics by the Inch, the 147gr Hydra-Shok never reaches 1100 fps out of any carbine-length barrel. That's not much more than +P velocities out of a handgun. The semi-auto cartridges just don't gain as much velocity from the long barrel as the magnum revolver rounds do, but the lighter bullet weights get more of a boost than the heavier ones.

 

[Jason_W]

I'd like to have a 9mm carbine. I figure I'd just use 147gr rounds in it. According to Ballistics by the Inch, the 147gr Hydra-Shok never reaches 1100 fps out of any carbine-length barrel. That's not much more than +P velocities out of a handgun. The semi-auto cartridges just don't gain as much velocity from the long barrel as the magnum revolver rounds do, but the lighter bullet weights get more of a boost than the heavier ones.

Reloaded with a slower burning powder the 9mm might gain a bit more. Factory stuff is optimized for handgun barrel lengths.

Even with revolver rounds from a carbine, a slow burning powder like H110, lil'gun, or #9 is needed to maximize velocity potential.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

It would do well to remember that hollowpoint ammunition is specifically designed to function in an optimal range of velocities. This is, obviously, because velocity can dramatically affect terminal ballistics.

This is because manufacturers learned a long time ago, likely due to complaints from customers and product reviews, that there's more to hollowpoint ammunition and performance than just a bullet with a hollow tip.

Take a look at the specific product velocity range...that's where its optimal performance is engineered to be. Outside of that and you'll start seeing things deviate from the expected performance.

 

[hdwhit]

peacebutready wrote:
...hollow point ammo shot through pistol caliber carbines frequently do not penetrate as much as fired from a pistol due to the carbine's higher velocity causing the bullet to mushroom...

Yes. It becomes a simple trade-off between a smaller, deeper wound channel versus a bigger, shallower wound.

...should there be hollow point ammo specifically for pistol cal carbines

Whether there "should" or "should not" be pistol caliber carbine ammunition (or even pistol caliber carbine bullets) is a question of individual judgment. The reality in the marketplace is that no manufacturer has found sufficient demand for such ammunition (or in the case of the reloader community, such bullets) to be created. So, the marketplace's answer is "No".

There is also the problem of how a manufacturer ensures that 9mm Parabellum for Carbine rounds remain segregated from their 9mm Parabellum for Pistol rounds once they leave the store and the liability concerns about their inappropriate use.

 

[Mycin]

It would do well to remember that hollowpoint ammunition is specifically designed to function in an optimal range of velocities. This is, obviously, because velocity can dramatically affect terminal ballistics.

This is because manufacturers learned a long time ago, likely due to complaints from customers and product reviews, that there's more to hollowpoint ammunition and performance than just a bullet with a hollow tip.

Take a look at the specific product velocity range...that's where its optimal performance is engineered to be. Outside of that and you'll start seeing things deviate from the expected performance.

That's why I'm thinking that heavy-for-caliber bullets in a standard pressure loading would be more appropriate for carbines. Since they gain less velocity in long barrels than do lighter bullets, they're less likely to exceed the optimal velocity range for the bullet, or at least to not do so by as much. Again according to Ballistics by the Inch, 147gr Hydra-Shok gains 89fps (8.8%) going from a 5" to 17" bbl. The 124gr round gains 135fps (12.1%) and the 115gr JHP gains 154fps (13.2%).

 

[peacebutready]

Again according to Ballistics by the Inch, 147gr Hydra-Shok gains 89fps (8.8%) going from a 5" to 17" bbl. The 124gr round gains 135fps (12.1%) and the 115gr JHP gains 154fps (13.2%).

A bit disappointing. Anyone have any idea how far the above bullets fired out of a carbine will travel before it drops to the velocity of a pistol at point blank range?

 

[Jason_W]

A bit disappointing. Anyone have any idea how far the above bullets fired out of a carbine will travel before it drops to the velocity of a pistol at point blank range?

In semi auto pistol calibers, it's best to think of a carbine as a pistol that's easier to aim.

 

[peacebutready]

In semi auto pistol calibers, it's best to think of a carbine as a pistol that's easier to aim.

One got a really good review. Brand may have been Theron or something like that. Higher velocities than the others.

 

[Mycin]

A bit disappointing. Anyone have any idea how far the above bullets fired out of a carbine will travel before it drops to the velocity of a pistol at point blank range?

Here's what I came up with.

147gr Hydra-Shok
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.2 (per Federal web site)
Initial Velocity: 1096 (17" bbl per BBTI)
Advertised handgun velocity: 1000fps
Range to drop to handgun velocity: 76 yds. (via)

124gr Hydra-Shok
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.15 (per Federal web site)
Initial Velocity: 1250 (17" bbl per BBTI)
Advertised handgun velocity: 1120fps
Range to drop to handgun velocity: 49 yds. (via)

115gr JHP
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.12 (per Federal web site)
Initial Velocity: 1320 (17" bbl per BBTI)
Advertised handgun velocity: 1180fps
Range to drop to handgun velocity: 37 yds. (via)

 

[Mycin]

As you see, the heavier bullets hold their velocity longer due to the higher ballistic coefficient.

 

[armoredman]

In informal testing with both factory and handloaded ammo for my Scorpion, I found the above data is pretty consistent - my 124/125gr loads generally picked up between 100-150 FPS out of the 7 inch barrel. I have nothing to test in for penetration/expansion, just the chrono data.

 

[gotboostvr]

In my only PCC (44mag 16" SS Rossi M92) I run 240gr XTP'S with IMR4227.

Feeds them (and LSWC's) great, and on deer sized game I have great expansion and penetration. I'm not running a very hot load, a little under what the Lyman 49 lists as max but I have great accuracy there.

On broadside shots, it's broken both shoulders, completely pulverized the far side breaking the blade completely in half on it's way out and shredded everything in between. I've never recovered a bullet in game.

My advice if your gun feeds them is to pick a cartridge, get a "standard weight" to "heavy" XTP for caliber (i.e. 158gr for 357, 147gr for 9mm, 240gr for 44mag, 200gr for 44spcl etc) and keep it within the speed range designated by Hornady and you'll have a winning combo.