9mm Soft-points: More penetration? Ditto for 147gr hollow-points

[NG VI]

Marshall and Sanow I think got a lot of their earlier, better reputation because when they were doing their early studies, bullet design was not as grown-up as it is now. Yes, they were always trying to make extremely subjective shooting anecdotes fit into some kind of useful framework, but to an extent the kinds of loads they found to be effective and advocated for did work well for their day.

You just have to understand that the loads that worked best back then, tended to be very much compromises. If they wanted to get any significant amount of expansion and the tissue disruption that went with it, manufacturers had to stick to the light for caliber and as fast as possible loads. Today's JHP bullets don't need to be constructed in such a way that they are on the verge of fragmentation in order to exand consistently, and because of that they penetrate more uniformly, aren't shackled to high (for pistols) velocities, and expand both more consistently and often to a wider diameter.

Marshall and Sanow are an interesting read, at least, and are pretty helpful in learning the history of handgun bullet design and performance, as long as you keep in mind that the way they tried to frame ballistics data just wasn't successful at describing the real world performance of bullets outside of a very narrow and well-defined set of operating parameters.

 

[robinkevin]

What about Midway USA, they seem to be some leading experts in the field today. Here is a chart that they put together which shows many of times the light bullets are much better than the heavier ones. It doesn't list where they rank 115gr 9mm but look at the .45 230gr compare to the .45 185gr.

http://www.midwayusa.com/content/legacy/CCH_rating_chart.htm

 

[Shawn Dodson]

What about Midway USA, they seem to be some leading experts in the field today. Here is a chart that they put together...

It's garbage.

 

[NG VI]

STEP 3: KNOCKDOWN FACTOR

Knockdown Factor is the ability of a cartridge, all other things being equal, to knock down an assailant with one well-placed shot.

I've bolded all the BS out of that quote.

Yeah, the whole chart system is worthless even if it does have some good areas to consider in other parts of it, because they have some idiotic statement about guns being able to knock people down.

It's not physically possible, and making a life and death decision based on the idea that a handgun is either capable of knocking someone down or is capable of stopping someone with a single shot, or has mystical wave properties that can't be quantified or measured but can be attributed to some rounds and not others is a terrible idea.

If you want to see for yourself, get a manikin and load it up with enough weight to approximate an adult, maybe throw a backpack full of books on it, and see how easily any handgun you own knocks it over. Try it with rifles and shotguns too. It'll be less well balanced than a person, have too much weight high and not centered, but I bet it won't fall down. Guns don't knock living things down, they make holes in them.

 

[robinkevin]

So where is some good infomation. There has been a ton of research on this and no data?

 

[kmbrman]

When judging todays 147 Gr. JHPs remember that great progress has been made in this weight. I've tested 147's against water jugs for expansion and penetration from a Glock 26 with it's short barrel and gotten excellent performance in both areas. The older generation of 147s of just a few years ago were unreliable , but not now. These ain't your grandad's old loads any more and look at pictures of the HST 147 JHP on the net.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

So where is some good infomation.

See - http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

 

[robinkevin]

See - http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

At first I have to admit I thought "goodie another forum with so call "experts" but DocGKR actually gives some really good data.

Still looking at the gel shots http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887 on this page even though 147gr 9mm penetrate an inch or less farther the wound channel made by the 124gr 9mm seems larger.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The disruption highlighted by the red food coloring is misleading. What you're seeing are fractures in the gelatin produced by the temporary cavity.

The "wound cavity" is depicted by the solid pencil line-like trail in the center of the fractured gelatin. It (the permanent wound cavity) is smaller than the expanded diameter of the bullet.

 

[robinkevin]

Yes I understand that and the 124gr still trumps the 147gr in that test. The only real question that you can ask is how the bone will react after it hits bone. In which case you could very well get different out come as the 147 should retain more weight after breaking through bone.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Yes I understand that and the 124gr still trumps the 147gr in that test.

Care to elaborate?

The only real question that you can ask is how the bone will react after it hits bone. In which case you could very well get different out come as the 147 should retain more weight after breaking through bone.

What specific bone are we referring to? At what angle does the bullet impact this bone? What is the specific location on this bone where the bullet impacts? How deeply does the bullet have to penetrate soft tissues before it impacts this bone?

 

[robinkevin]

The 124gr in the gel test is showing a much large permanent cavity than the other. That is if you are talking about the pencil like marks which maybe we just aren't looking at the gel test the same...

Far as your other question it would more than likely be a rib or perhaps chest bone as any attacker must be coming towards you. In which case the lighter bullet is less likely to retain the weight to get another what 11" from that bone? Not saying that it wont just less likely. But enough ready I have came to the mind set that who ever that I am talking to on this topic is right and I am wrong no matter what their or my outlook... The one thing that I agree most with this DocGKR is,
"Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios."
I think we can all agree with that even though I know some won't.

 

[peacebutready]

Chuck Hawks and Marshall and Sanow are some of the most discredited names in firearms/ammunition. Look elsewhere.

Interesting. I need to look into that.

 

[peacebutready]

147gr bullets are longer, which allow them to have a deeper hollowpoint cavity. The deeper cavity allows cloth plugs, which are cut out “cookie-cutter” style by the cavity rim, to be pushed deeper into the cavity, which clears the cavity mouth to facilitate reliable expansion without +P or +P+ recoil and muzzle flip (required for lighter-weight bullets to achieve the same level of expansion reliability after passing through heavy clothing).

147gr is to 9mm what 230gr is to .45 ACP and 180gr is to .40 S&W. All share similar sectional densities. All are propelled at similar velocities. All penetrate about the same after expansion.

147=180=230. Thanks, I didn't know that about penetration

 

[peacebutready]

Thank you all for your responses.

 

[7.62 Nato]

Federal HST 9mm 147 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/Denim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRqrJRq4T0&feature=player_embedded

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The 124gr in the gel test is showing a much large permanent cavity than the other. That is if you are talking about the pencil like marks which maybe we just aren't looking at the gel test the same...

The actual diameter of the permanent cavity is smaller than the expanded diameter of the bullet. The diameter of tissue crushed by the penetrating bullet is not constant from beginning to end because as the bullet penetrates it slows down which gives more time for soft tissue to move out of the bullet’s path – the tissue is pushed aside or stretches around the bullet. The permanent cavity (the diameter of tissue crushed by the bullet) decreases in diameter as the bullet penetrates.

Far as your other question it would more than likely be a rib or perhaps chest bone as any attacker must be coming towards you.

These bones will have negligible effect on the bullet’s terminal performance.

Arm, shoulder and spinal bones will have greater effect; however the effect unpredictable because it is dependent on variables the shooter doesn’t control. The only thing the shooter can hope for is for the bullet to bust through the bone and keep penetrating.