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A friend and I had legally carried firearms confiscated tonight

Discussion in 'Legal' started by The Undertoad, Jun 15, 2004.

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  1. PATH

    PATH Member

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    Wow! This has been one long thread to get through. Interesting though.
    Living in New York State let me say that I wish I were in Virginia. The laws here have become more draconian in incremental steps. Gun registration in NYC started in 1968 and was to be an aid to police. Now the laws are so restrictive that owning is expensive and difficult. Carry of any sort in NYC is forbidden.(Unless you are wealthy or well connected.)

    My .02 cents. Don't give in on any right! They will take more rights away from you as time goes on if you allow them. I truly admire the efforts of VCDL. The rights of gun owners have been protected in this case. Look what happened to mvpel in New Hampshire. If open carry is legal then it is legal. If you choose to open carry then do so! We cannot back down or they will be all over us like stink on a bear.

    Here in New York we have to beg for our rights. A judge can deny you for any reason. Think not? Go appeal their decision and see how far you get.

    New Jersey, California, New York, and Maryland are prime examples of what can happen if we do not organize and fight for our rights. I envy all of you who live in "free" America! Here in New York we fight a forlorn hope I fear!

    Never surrender! Never retreat!


    p.s.

    I mean no disrespect to those fine rights groups fighting in the aforementioned states!
     
  2. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    Once again, everything depends on what state you're in. My state requires a license to carry concealed, and does NOT allow open carry for those who have no license. I am still attempting to get a definitive interpretation as to whether or not open carry is legal if you have a license. (In my state, it is a "handgun" license, not a "concealed weapon" license. No mention on the license regarding mode of carry.)

    This is very obviously not a one-size-fits-all situation.
     
  3. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    Lone_Gunman - I've helped educate several restaurant owners and managers in northern Virginia on the carry laws, as well as people on the street. Granted, we have an unusual situation here: if a restaurant serves alcohol, open carry is legal, concealed carry is illegal - but then who would know?

    I haven't had problems, but I suspect that's because 1) I'm a woman (don't laugh - women get away with a lot more than men), and 2) I dress professionally when I'm carrying openly. I've had people think I was an off-duty LEO, and when I told them that I was a citizen exercising my rights, and I explained the law, they were ok with it.
     
  4. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

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    hmmph!

    Cops have no duty to protect all the people all the time. "You don't need a gun" I hear that incredibly boring,useless argument all the time here in CA. Yet criminals are still killing without checking the law books,Mountain Lions are still stalking in suburban parks.
    I will agree to stop carrying guns when the police agree to provide me with 24/7 personal protection

    Thats right! they simply died without being able to fight back,they were taught for years to co operate with robbers and rapist "for their own safety" Cops are allways telling people it is better not to fight back,to submit...Thanks alot for the great advice...I am sure the The "panicked sheeple" in San Ysidro and Luby's and Columbine and Pep Boys and at the Bank of America and Norco probably listened to that kind of advice and wondered "why are we being killed,we are being cooperative"?

    Why are they called "Sheeple" anyway?
     
  5. Daniel T

    Daniel T Member

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    Lone Gunman,

    I don't know what kind of car you drive, but hypothetically, let's say it was a beater. Specifically, a red '88 Mazda 323 with a broken window latch on the back left window. Maybe the passenger side door doesn't lock either. Also, say you're too young to get a concealed carry permit, but old enough to legally own a handgun. You like to go out to the range about once a month (because, since you're a college student, once a month is all you can afford), and now you're coming back from your trip. You haven't eaten in a while, and since you only have condiments in the fridge, you pull over to get some food.

    You're in a state where open carry is legal. What do you do with your pistols?

    Let's make it even more simple. Say you're a 20 year old, and are old enough to own a pistol but not old enough to get a concealed carry permit. Do you stay disarmed?
     
  6. ScottS

    ScottS Member

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    By the way, with all that went on in this interesting thread, maybe we missed out on something. Many talked. Many huffed and puffed. Some actually did something. In addition to the good efforts of VCDL, Gunsmith deserves kudos for actually calling the Starbucks in question. I was pretty impressed that someone actually took the time to talk to someone at Starbucks and find out what their take on it was. Nice going.

    Scott
     
  7. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Daniel T,

    I would still probably not open carry in the scenario you describe, though I wouldn't necessarily fault others for doing so. I am not opposed to open carry on theoretical grounds, its just that from a practical standpoint, I don't want the hassle of people being freaked out and calling the police about "a man with a gun".
     
  8. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    Unfortunately when I was born I was alloted only so much time and so many resources. I therefore have to pick my battles because I don't have an unlimited supply of ammo (so to speak). Open carry is one of those issues while appealing for a number of reasons is not worth me wasting my ammo. Didn't say it wasn't a worthy battle. Did say is wasn't a worthy battle for me to engage in.

    Those in Virginia have at least a small chance of victory. Those of us in NC face a horrific open carry law the likes of which I doubt exists anywhere else though I may be wrong.
     
  9. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    The main reason I would value open carry is that it would not be a misdemeanor to fail to conceal, even when intending to do so. If I am printing or flashing or whatever the term, it would be no crime. At any other opportune time, I would like the option to open carry.

    If we are talking about VA, where open carry is supposed to "normal" by way of being legal, why be shy about helping people get used to it? It's not our fault that folks never see anyone on TV except cops and bad guys with guns. At the same time, I would recommend some discretion, but it's too much like the anti mentality to worry so much or be judmental and controlling about how other gun owners choose to carry.
     
  10. TimW

    TimW Member

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    I open carry. "Because I can" is all the reason I need.

    If YOU need more reasons why I open carry:
    1. Because I can
    2. Because it's more comfortable
    3. For educational purposes.

    I open carry about 50% of the time when I do carry.

    As for the "image" thing, some of my best supporters (money, time, energy) during my mayoral race were from the biker community. These guys did a LOT for me. Many of them carry openly. They support the Second Amendment and freedom. They vote (well, them that can...:D ) and they spend money.

    So, they look "rough". If what they're doing is legal, who am I to say anything just because of what they look like or how they're dressed.

    Many years ago in a local gun store/club, my wife and I were milling about the store. Several feet away was an older, scruffy lookin' dude...someone you'd hate to meet in an alley lookin'.

    My wife, who is very pro-gun and came with her own when we married, whispered something to the effect of "they let anyone in here....I'd hate to meet him in a dark alley."

    I just smiled and nodded until we moved out of earshot, then said:

    "Do you know who that was?"
    "Nope"
    "Alice Cooper"

    Oops.

    Lawyers and politicians look very nice all dressed up. Bikers look like "scum of the earth". Police, we have been told, are your friends and foreigners just can't be trusted.

    As we know, looks can be deceiving.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2004
  11. dev_null

    dev_null Member

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    I hear Vince is a great guy. Even if he does play golf. :D

    - 0 -
     
  12. thumbody

    thumbody Member

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    I can not believe some of you guys . (Don't do it the sheeple may get excited and you will ruin it for all of us). The uninformed and the antis are afraid of all guns. The AK the AR and semi auto handguns in particular. Should we give up our right to these so as not to scare or affend them? I have never wanted a military style rifle but I will not call for them to be banned because the antis may be scared. We need to stick together not divide ourselves.
     
  13. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    No we shouldnt give up the right at all, but getting in a soccer mom's face with an AK 47 is probably not the best way to convince her that gun owners are nice people and AK's are OK.

    Putting a gun on your hip and strutting around like John Wayne isn't going to get you too far, whether you like it or not.

    I am not against it on moral or Constitutional grounds. I just don't see how it helps our cause. If you think open carry educates the public and makes them more comfy with guns in general, I would respectfully disagree.
     
  14. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

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    Aw shucks

    Thanks Scott!
     
  15. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

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    How about if he didn't strut around like John Wayne? How would one be able to strut around and still have your approval? The reason you associate a gun on the hip of a non-police officer/nonmilitary personnel with John Wayne is that you are not accustomed to seeing regular good guy/non-criminals doing it, other than John Wayne in the old Westerns. This is the point, i.e., to get the image out there as a common occurrence, wherever possible, of a regular good guy walking around with a gun on his hip. People need to see more of that image. Otherwise, we surrender the image-making to Hollywood Leftists, and then you only see cops, military personnel and bad guys carrying guns openly.
     
  16. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    I understand completely your point. The best reason anyone has been able to come up with for open carry is education of the public. I just am not so sure its going to do anything more than freak people out.

    Only a small percentage of gun owners will ever open carry, so I don't think you will ever have enough people doing it to make it look like something mainstream.

    To each his own, though. As I have said before, I am not theoretically or constititutionally opposed to the idea, I just think walking around with your gun out looks garish at best and stupid at worst.

    Hey but maybe after I see the 4 or 5 of you who carry open, I will get re-educated and change my mind.;)
     
  17. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

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    You know what though, off duty cops around where I live are notorious for bad concealment off duty. They tend to wear outside of the belt holsters, and cover it with an untucked shirt or jacket. The other day I saw one trying to conceal it with a vest that failed to cover the bottom third (and sometimes more) of his holster. In other words, he might as well have been carrying open in plain clothes. His buddy had his covered with a garment, but what he was covering could only have been a Glock. I could even tell the make and model of the gun, for crying out loud. I didn't see anyone freak out, and this was in a suburban Barnes and Noble bookstore. And, no, I don't live it Texas. In fact, the only situation my state lets you to open carry is when you are actually engaged in hunting in locations where hunting is permitted, or on your own property (and this probably doesn't include those who live in urban or suburban areas).
     
  18. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Obviously, though, the sheep don't always remain calm... Just look at the guy who started this thread.
     
  19. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    Discrediting the idea with a caricature is not convincing, There would be only a fraction of those open carrying that do it with any swagger, especially western style.

    Consider that if the entertainment industry were involved, the population could get used to any idea. Consider how socially unacceptable crude language was not that many years ago. Don't tell me that the film industry has not been influential in that regard. If movie and sitcom plots included lawful civilian carry on a regular basis, it would definitely have an impact on the social acceptance of appearing in public openly wearing a gun. The only reason for public aghast at observing open carry is that they don't know of a positive explanation for it.

    Consider that it's just a gun until someone draws it and has a finger on the trigger. Otherwise, awareness of a gun should have the same unconcerned reaction as for a policeman with a belt full of stuff.

    The only message from observing someone calmly wearing a gun is that here is a person who chooses to defend himself rather than imprudently rely upon the police.

    Our reasons for concealment are different than those of lawmakers who create concealment requirements. They want it to be a secret and to control it, while acknowledging reluctantly and conditionally that we have the right to carry a gun.
     
  20. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    The best reason I have read is "for comfort".
     
  21. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    And this assumption is any more valid than the one it is attacking..???

    Hows this....since many will open carry just to get the "sheeple" used to guns, cant we assume that these peoiple are just gonna "swagger" around with an "in your face attitude"...


    WildwhyisoneassumptionmorevalidthananotherAlaska
     
  22. dev_null

    dev_null Member

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  23. Orthonym

    Orthonym Member

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    It's a little bit different in FL.

    No one can carry openly, (except for some exceptions that haven't been tested lately, AFAIK). A moderate fee, fingerprints, and a laughably short course will get you a concealed-carry permit. Carrying concealed without the permit is a felony, carrying openly is a fairly seriously misdemeanor. (IANAL, so look this up and/or consult a lawyer before doing anything questionable.) At least if I lived in Georgia, I could carry openly in my own curtilege. Not here. Unfortunately, the FL legislature tends to pass any law suggested to them by the cop lobby.

    Aw, shoot, didn't mean to rant off-topically; what I meant to say was,


    Welcome, Kevmo327, and

    Welcome, DHolland!

    Y'all do understand that you'll be required to provide all of the ammo for the great Schuetzenfest when we all get together? The only way you can escape is by recruiting an even more junior person to join up. snork.

    When I say junior, that's with tongue in cheek. DHolland, from what he says, is infinitely senior to me in the real world. What's it like to order Marines to hold still while you stick them and cut them?
     
  24. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

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    John Wayne Strut

    I've seen every John Wayne movie and believe me,he would strut around even when he wasn't wearing a sidearm.

    "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance"
    Is one of the best movies ever made
     
  25. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    Well Mr. Wildpainintheassalaska :>), maybe you should push for passage of a law that dictates the necessary body language when open carrying. I am positive that at least one wouldn't strut and show off...me. I don't believe that is an assumption. Rather than assumption here, I think we're really talking about degree of cynicism, except in this case we spar with each other instead of our real opponents.
     
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