A good hunting/target rifle

[Varminterror]

Do you think an AR is as accurate as a bolt gun?

Nope.

Dollar for dollar, a bolt gun will outshoot an AR until you get to about $2500-3000 for a bolt gun, and then an AR will never catch back up to a bolt gun. A $1,000 AR can often shoot as well as a $300-400 bolt gun, but for the same dollar spent, the bolt gun is simpler, such it’s simpler to make shoot smaller.

Equally, bolt guns are easier to shoot than AR’s. Or maybe it should be said AR’s are harder to shoot well than bolt guns. The form of the AR stands taller than a bolt gun, with far more opportunity to torque the rifle by the pistol grip.

Most people DO shoot well enough to tell the difference. The difference may not matter for every application, but it remains nonetheless.

 

[T.R.]

TIKKA builds very good rifles for an affordable price. Try the .308, you'll like it!

TR

 

[JumboJVT]

I think I'd go with the 6.5C in your situation. But...

s a hunting rifle the 308 LOOKS a little better on paper. But there is no animal I'd hunt with a 308 or 270 that I'd not also hunt with a 6.5 CM. Those are the 2 rounds that come closest in performance. A 270 shoots the same bullet weights about 150-200 fps faster at the muzzle, but by the time you get 200-300 yards downrange the more aerodynamic 6.5 bullets have caught up. A 140 gr 6.5 bullet, a 180 gr 308 bullet and a 150 gr 270 bullet will give almost identical penetration on game animals.

While that may be true of bullets of the same weights, is a function of the sectional density and bullet shape, which is going to be true of just about any pair of cartridges of different calibers and the same bullet weight.

Per Noslers published data for their Trophy Grade LR ammo using the Accubond LR bullet, the 129g 6.5C (0.264 SD) and a 150g 270W (0.279 SD) both leave the muzzle at 2850 fps. But at 600 yds, the 6.5C is travelling 1889 fps and the 270W 1979 fps, with retained energies of 1022 ft# and 1304 ft#, respectively. The 6.5C has dropped 71" and and 270W 68" in getting there. Checking the 6.5C in 140g Ballistic Tip ammo (Nosler apparently doesn't load the 140 ABLR in the Trophy Grade line) which has an SD of 0.287, leaves the muzzle at 2650 fps, is going 1711 fps at 600 yds with 910 ft# of retained energy. Its dropped 85". And the 130g 270? SD of 0.242, MZ of 3075 fps, 1887 fps @ 600 yds, 1027 ft# RE and 65" drop.

So whats the takeaway here?
1) At the same bullet weight, a 6.5C doesn't catchup to a 270 within 2-300 yards - even with 130's that are at the same velocity at 600 yds, the 270 got there first by virtue of the higher initial velocity (see the trajectory).

2) At their most efficient bullet weights, the 270 delvers 30% more energy at 600 yds than 6.5C while having a marginally flatter trajectory.

3) When comparing 140g 6.5C to 150g 270W, the higher sectional density of the 6.5C cannot possibly outweigh the 260 fps increase in impact velocity at 600 yds in regards to penetration Note the RE is some 45% greater. The 270 also has a trajectory that is 17" flatter.

4) If we accept the standard mantra that 1000 ft# RE is the bottom end for the ethical harvest of big game, the 6.5C is limited to 600 yds...if you can hit 'em. The 150g carries that to just shy of 800 yds. Or more to the point, the 270 simply has more horsepower ALL ranges.

Much as a 30-06 makes a poor 300 Win Mag, a 6.5C makes a poor 270. Say what you will about inherent accuracy and low-recoil, terminal ballistics are terminal ballistics. Note that I suggested I'd go with the 6.5 C for the OP's purposes...I'm not a 6.5 C hater. But I just had to get this off my chest. Thanks for listening.

 

[Howland937]

Ha. I have an old 95 Mauser I bought 30ish years ago I had notions of making a project out of. A little researched showed the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. Nothing has really changed. You'll spend more on that old clunker than just buying one.

Years ago I picked one up that had been done. Guy built it for his dad, but his dad passed before it was done. He finished it but never fired it. 95 action in 7x57, Shilen barrel, beautiful blonde curly maple stock. Probably wasn't worth a ton but,man it was pretty and shot exceptionally well. I'd buy another one if I found one like it.

 

[Skylerbone]

Note that I suggested I'd go with the 6.5 C for the OP's purposes...I'm not a 6.5 C hater. But I just had to get this off my chest. Thanks for listening.

And believe it or not we listened too to the OP’s criteria. The point of the charts was to demonstrate that 6.5 is not a barrel burner, has a wind advantage vs .308, and enough energy to ring steel just as well at 500+ yards.

 

[Jbird45]

And believe it or not we listened too to the OP’s criteria. The point of the charts was to demonstrate that 6.5 is not a barrel burner, has a wind advantage vs .308, and enough energy to ring steel just as well at 500+ yards.

You did listen to my criteria, and I appreciate all the responses.

I have done some research, and I know this is over double what I originally intended to spend, but I am considering the Ruger precision rifle. I realize it's not much of a hunting rifle, but after thinking about it I really don't NEED another hunting rifle.

I watched a few videos on this rifle, and it looks like barrel swaps are pretty straight forward and with a few gunsmithing tools and some patience seems like something I could accomplish. I also don't think it would destroy the value of the gun if you shot out a barrel and threaded a new one on, because there are lots of quality barrels on the market. There are also upgraded triggers and other parts so I can kind of build a custom rifle as I go.

Will I ever shoot enough to wear out a barrel? I don't know. But all I want is to be able to shoot and not have that thought in the back of my head. I just want to enjoy my time at the range.

I know this isn't what I was originally considering, and it's more of a bench rifle, but it is available in 6.5 and .308. and if I decide to sit in my shack and not walk and stalk I don't need a lightweight rifle anyway.

I guess if I am going to spend the money, the RPR looks like a good choice at least to me.

 

[Legionnaire]

The RPR is a fine choice. And for the range, 6.5 Creedmoor ... or even 6mm Creedmoor. The latter would also be fine on whitetail and pronghorn.

 

[Skylerbone]

https://www.seekinsprecision.com/havak-bolt-action-rifle-ph2.html

A sub-7 lbs precision hunting rifle. Even more than the Ruger but worth consideration (if we’re spending your money).

 

[Jbird45]

Hello! Sorry to bring this back up.

Cabela's has the first generation Ruger precision rifle on sale right now. I have done a little research to see what the differences are but is there any major flaw in the first gen that would make it not worth a third of a price of the 3rd gen? I am looking at a .308

They also have a weatherby precision rifle on sale. Anyone have experience with these?

 

[BigBL87]

I can't find a Weatherby specifically called a "precision rifle" so I'm assuming its the Modular Chasis Vanguard? In any event, the Vanguards are solid rifles and at least in the case of mine, super smooth action. Plenty of aftermarket if you want it as well since it is essentially a Howa 1500.

No experience with the RPR, so can't help there.

 

[Hookeye]

Buy a rifle that has a barrel nut.
When the bbl gets shot out, you can put on another at reasonable cost.

I don't get the fear of reloading certain cartridges.
One can choose propellants that fill the case, so no risk of overcharge.

 

[LoonWulf]

Hello! Sorry to bring this back up.

Cabela's has the first generation Ruger precision rifle on sale right now. I have done a little research to see what the differences are but is there any major flaw in the first gen that would make it not worth a third of a price of the 3rd gen? I am looking at a .308

They also have a weatherby precision rifle on sale. Anyone have experience with these?

I shoot a friends gen 1rpr in .308 from time to time....only .308 ive fired more than once in fact....

Ive shot a couple of the later gens that have shown up at the range......

I cant remember a difference.


If the wby rifle your talking about is the Modular Chasis @BigBL87 mentioned, and its simply a sum of its parts, it will be a fantastic rifle. It probably wont out shoot an RPR, but it has some functional features id prefer.
That said i base my opinion off different howa/vanguard rifles ive owned, or shot.

 

[Varminterror]

Cabela's has the first generation Ruger precision rifle on sale right now. I have done a little research to see what the differences are but is there any major flaw in the first gen that would make it not worth a third of a price of the 3rd gen? I am looking at a .308

I really can’t believe Cabela’s could still have any inventory of Gen 1 RPR’s - make sure you’re really sure which Gen you’re buying. None were bad, but Gen 2 and 3 are certainly upgrades over Gen 1.

The Gen 1 should be a Keymod handguard, which may need a bit higher rings for big objective scopes - or need to have the handguard replaced. The plastic bolt shroud in the Gen 1’s were also a common headache which were corrected for the later Gen’s. You’ll be missing a muzzle device available on the new gen’s, which may or may not add cost for you (assuming you’re going to use a brake, so the decision is whether you’d leave the Gen2/3 alone or end up buying a better brake regardless of which Gen you buy).

So that’s really the gap - if you buy an aftermarket or factory bolt shroud to upgrade, replace the handguard to upgrade, and buy a muzzle brake you wouldn’t have bought if you’d bought a Gen2/3, then you could end up spending more on a Sale Priced Gen 1 than you could have paid for a Gen 3. If you’re NOT doing any upgrades, then the deal might be a deal.

 

[skeeterfogger]

308

 

[rayatphonix]

I’ve got rifles in both 308 and Creedmoor. You mentioned you want something that shoots out to 500-600 yards and is good for hunting deer at 100- 200 yards. A 6.5 Grendel does all that with about 28 grains of powder (my usual load) vs 41 - 44 grains for the 308 and Creedmoor. That’s a lot less heat. I spent yesterday shooting at a 300 yard target and spent considerable time waiting for my barrels to cool. I was shooting a 308 and a Creedmoor.

Howa and CZ both make heavy barrel Grendel rifles. You can get a Howa in chassis configuration if that’s your thing. Typically both brands both very accurate.

 

[Sneakshot92]

As of right now, I have 5 rifles. And they are at the extreme ends of the spectrum. I have a .22-250 and .264 Win mag that are high velocity, over bore, barrel burners and I have a .30-30 and .45-70 Gov't which are heavy, slow, rainbow trajectory freight trains made for short distance shooting. I also have a .22lr.

I had at one point a Savage .30-06 and hated it. I could never get it to group well no matter what I fed it. I tried factory ammo, reloads, and 3 different scopes. I got rid of it and feel bad for whoever the poor soul is who bought it after I did. I should have melted it down into scrap metal. I am not saying the .30-06 is a bad cartridge, but I really don't want another one.

I am tired of going to the range and worrying about barrel wear and keeping the barrel cool between shots for the high velocity rifles, let alone the .264 is $3 a shot. The 45-70 and .30-30 aren't bad on the 100 yard range but the range I go to has a 567 yard target that is fun, and those rifles aren't made for that. Yes, I realize in 1873 the .45-70 was a long range cartridge but my lever action doesn't have a scope and isn't getting one so I would look like a fool trying to hit with a big bore and iron sights. I realize I have 2 rifles designed for long range but every round I send downrange makes me think of barrel wear and I don't want to re-barrel my rifles.

I would like a rifle in the middle of the road. Something that isn't an ultra long range cartridge, but isn't a brush gun either. It would have to be economical to shoot, relatively flat shooting, and capable of 500-600 yard shots. I need something I can shoot relatively often and not worry about excessive barrel wear. I would like to be able to take deer and antelope sized game at 100-200 yards.

Right now, i am considering a Ruger American predator in 6.5 Creedmoor. I like the heavier barrel and have heard the Creedmoor is a relatively balanced round. I was thinking maybe a .308 or a .270 may not be bad choices either.

I just want a rifle I can shoot relatively often and not have to worry about. I realize all barrels wear, but the 2 screamers I have are notorious for it. I don't need a 1000 yard tack driver either. I just need a relatively flat shooting, economical, long lasting, all purpose rifle capable of the occasional 500 yard shots. Is that too much to ask for?

I know you can't get any rifle barrel hot and expect it to not wear, but I don't want something so high velocity and overbore. I will still keep my new rifle cool, but I am tired of worrying about throat erosion and heat cracking.

And for the guy that is going to tell me that barrels are a wear item and to screw a new one on when it wears out, I would agree with you, but the .264 was my grandfather's and I don't want to be the idiot that destroys a classic rifle. The .22-250 was a more recent purchase, and is intended for the occasional coyote hunt, but I still don't want to wear it out as that is a vintage rifle as well.

I am welcome to all suggestions that don't require me to modify my current rifles.

This screams 7x57 or 7mm-08 to me.

 

[mustanger98]

As of right now, I have 5 rifles. And they are at the extreme ends of the spectrum. I have a .22-250 and .264 Win mag that are high velocity, over bore, barrel burners and I have a .30-30 and .45-70 Gov't which are heavy, slow, rainbow trajectory freight trains made for short distance shooting. I also have a .22lr.

...

I am tired of going to the range and worrying about barrel wear and keeping the barrel cool between shots for the high velocity rifles, let alone the .264 is $3 a shot. The 45-70 and .30-30 aren't bad on the 100 yard range but the range I go to has a 567 yard target that is fun, and those rifles aren't made for that. Yes, I realize in 1873 the .45-70 was a long range cartridge but my lever action doesn't have a scope and isn't getting one so I would look like a fool trying to hit with a big bore and iron sights. I realize I have 2 rifles designed for long range but every round I send downrange makes me think of barrel wear and I don't want to re-barrel my rifles.

I would like a rifle in the middle of the road. Something that isn't an ultra long range cartridge, but isn't a brush gun either. It would have to be economical to shoot, relatively flat shooting, and capable of 500-600 yard shots. I need something I can shoot relatively often and not worry about excessive barrel wear. I would like to be able to take deer and antelope sized game at 100-200 yards.

...

I am welcome to all suggestions that don't require me to modify my current rifles.

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but my first thought is about whether that .45-70... also, which .45-70 is it... can it be fitted with a vernier sight. Usually, that's done with a longer barrel like Marlin's 1895 or Winchester's 1886, but more often with the single-shots.

 

[Jbird45]

I misspoke. It is the vanguard chassis rifle. I am leaning more towards a chassis style rifle over a hunting rifle right now. I like the idea of easy barrel changes and customization.

I am not sure if the RPR at Cabela's us a gen 1 or gen 2. I am assuming it's probably a gen 2 now as someone mentioned it would be silly to still have gen 1

If the wby rifle your talking about is the Modular Chasis @BigBL87 mentioned, and its simply a sum of its parts, it will be a fantastic rifle. It probably wont out shoot an RPR, but it has some functional features id prefer.
That said i base my opinion off different howa/vanguard rifles ive owned, or shot.

I am not doubting you, but what would the reason the Weatherby wouldn't shoot as good as the Ruger? Is it just not as high quality?

 

[LoonWulf]

I am not doubting you, but what would the reason the Weatherby wouldn't shoot as good as the Ruger? Is it just not as high quality?

no quality is very good on both, and accuracy should be similar. From experience tho i dont think the vanguard will outshoot the rpr which is usually a bit cheaper.

found this tho
https://www.cdnnsports.com/weatherby-vanguard-modular-chassis-6-5cm.html#.XwsYybluhxc

 

[Jbird45]

no quality is very good on both, and accuracy should be similar. From experience tho i dont think the vanguard will outshoot the rpr which is usually a bit cheaper.

found this tho
https://www.cdnnsports.com/weatherby-vanguard-modular-chassis-6-5cm.html#.XwsYybluhxc

no quality is very good on both, and accuracy should be similar. From experience tho i dont think the vanguard will outshoot the rpr which is usually a bit cheaper.

found this tho
https://www.cdnnsports.com/weatherby-vanguard-modular-chassis-6-5cm.html#.XwsYybluhxc

Oh I understand. The Weatherby at normal price is more expensive than the Ruger but chances are will not be that much more accurate. Gotcha

That's a good price, but Cabela's has one right now for $550. I may go look at the Weatherby today. For the prices Cabela's is selling rifles for right now I would be stupid not to buy one

 

[LoonWulf]

Oh I understand. The Weatherby at normal price is more expensive than the Ruger but chances are will not be that much more accurate. Gotcha

That's a good price, but Cabela's has one right now for $550. I may go look at the Weatherby today. For the prices Cabela's is selling rifles for right now I would be stupid not to buy one

at 550 id probably jump on that. the mdt chassis is about that much i think.

 

[Hookeye]

I paid 600 for my Steyr Prohunter
Its in .30-06 and is heavy.
Makes it comfy from the bench.
Has some finish to the metal, that and plastic stock make it my beater/ bad weather rig.

Came w a 1MOA or better guarantee.

Its a little different in feel. Aint perfect. But I find it tolerable.

Bbl profile reportedly leads to heat up. Not the rig to use pounding targets over and over in short period of time.

Never do that w my other rigs so non issue

 

[Hookeye]

Lots of positive talk about the Tikka stuff elsewhere.

 

[Hookeye]

Only 6.5 im interested in......the Grendel.
Thought about one for my kid.

Have to shoot it off tripod/ cradle system.
So may not be an issue ( no recoil due to health ).

It is a cute looking round

 

[Varminterror]

I’ve commented on a couple of sidebars in this thread, but not doneso regarding the OP’s premise.

While I will concede, a master of all is a master of none, I really struggle to agree with the party line, here.

Light enough to haul for mountain hunting, accurate enough for 600-1,000 yard hunting, and enjoyable enough to put a lot of rounds through...

“Impossible.” “No such rifle exists.”

I’m not buying that.

If you had asked for a 5lb rifle which can kill an elephant at 1,000 yards and has itty bitty recoil, then sure, we would have had a problem. But that wasn’t the request I read. First, I don’t have any issue carrying an 11-12lb rifle up-mountain. Secondly, I don’t have any issue throwing a few dozen rounds downrange, even of magnum cartridges, from an 11-12lb rifle. And of course, reaching 600-1000 yards with any of these qualified rifles is only the challenge that is shooting 600-1000 yards. Going lighter with an 8-9lb all-in rifle is nicer to carry, but I’d cut magnum cartridges out of my life and use a standard long action like a 284win or 280rem, or 6.5-06, or step down to a 6.5 creed.

For me, an exceptionally viable factory option would be either the Seekins Havak or Element in 6.5 PRC. Plenty of power for knocking elk off of mountains, light enough for the longest of rucks, potent enough for hunting, but not so much recoil that a guy couldn’t send 100 rounds downrange in a session without a shoulder separation. The Element obviously lighter than the steel Havak, easier carrying but harder recoiling, the steel Havak a bit heavier, but less abusive on the shoulder. There are a handful of rifles in this class ready and able to deliver exceptional precision while not outweighing a hunter’s standard.

Frankly, I hauled my 11.5lb Ruger M77 Hawkeye 300wm up mountain last season, no part of our terrain was friendly, but at 11.5lbs, I didn’t mind zeroing from the bench, not carrying 6-10miles each day. With the factory ammo I ended up taking, from a field support, I could have reached out to 700 and tagged any Bruin we could/should have seen, with confidence, and in practice & proving before the trip, I reached past 1100 yards with the rifle.