A hypothetical situation

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commodorefork

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Hi, guys.

I live in a bad part of St. Louis, MO. After several unfortunate encounters with the 'locals', I'm considering getting a C&C permit.

Now, here's the situation:
I don't drive, so I usually ride my bike to the store and so on. Many people have been knocked off their bikes and beaten up in my neighborhood.

I'm wondering, if someone knocks me off my bike and tries to ride away with it (STEAL it) can I shoot him? Would that be considered lawfully defending your property? I'd be more than willing to do it. Just wondering what the legal repercussions would be.

Thanks for your advice.
 
I don't think you can do that. Sounds like it would be considered assault with a deadly weapon in court. Best to read state and local laws considering appropriate use of a firearm for those situations.
 
I would be more attentive to using "deadly force" ONLY when you are in fear of your life! Getting knocked down is aggression, but a fine line runs through this "smash and grab" scenario.

It would in most cases not be justified just to prevent someone from stealing your bike! I know Thieves anger us all!

However...we must realize the importance and required responsibility we must possess when we are a legally armed citizens.

I would probably at the very least have somewhere at the top of my to do list, In capital letters.....

To Do List:

1) (MAKE PLANS TO RELOCATE FROM THIS NEIGHBORHOOD) Or...
(SPEAK WITH CITY COUNCIL ON HOW TO CLEAN UP MY NEIGHBORHOOD)

And I realize relocating is not necessarily a easy task! But I wish you all the best in your situation.
 
What if the person who knocks you off your bike and steals it has an accomplice who, after seeing you shoot his partner, decides to shoot you for shooting his partner?

Much safer to insure your bike against theft, make a phone call, get a new bike.
 
1) Now that you have admitted that you are "more than willing to do it" you will never get a fair shake from a jury. You need to be extra careful not to give a prosecutor an excuse for putting you away.

2) From a legal perspective, it is hard for me to believe that Missouri would let you kill someone to protect your bicycle.

3) From a moral perspective, even if the robber did steal your bicycle, what gives you the right to take his life.

4) From an economic perspective: No way are you saving money killing someone to protect your bicycle. You will be up to your ears in legal alligators for a long , long time and lawyers are not cheap.
 
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I wouldn't even throw rocks at them. Just call the police and file a complaint.
That's true... throwing rocks could be viewed as provoking a confrontation which would then nullify deadly force self-defense. I was being sarcastic about throwing the rocks, but you are correct.

Have to move to Texas if you want to be able to legally shoot a bicycle thief....and then I THINK that only applies at night, but I might be wrong.
 
Maybe it is just me, but I have never in my life seen a bike worth killing someone over. That's a big statement.
 
You can only shoot them in Texas if it's at night AND they're on your privately owned property.

I believe you are mistaken:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm#9.41

Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

I don't see anything in the statute requiring you to be on your own private property.
 
I appreciate the replies. It has given me something to think about.
I'm not anywhere near having a C&C license, I'm just researching the possibility.
I guess shooting someone over a bike might be a slight overreaction. :p

I'm simply trying to plan how I should handle these situations before they occur. In this case, calling the police might be the best idea. ;-)
 
I'm wondering, if someone knocks me off my bike and tries to ride away with it (STEAL it) can I shoot him? Would that be considered lawfully defending your property? I'd be more than willing to do it. Just wondering what the legal repercussions would be.

Thanks for your advice.

Your life will end as you know it. I think that even if it was a righteous shoot It is going to cost you a bunch of money to defend in court. I don't think theres many places in the US that allow the use of deadly force to stop a property crime. Texas at night is the only place I can think of and even there it will be a life changing event.
 
I guess shooting someone over a bike might be a slight overreaction.
Shooting someone when it's not immediately necessary to prevent serious injury or death is a bad idea even if it's legal.

It's not about when you CAN shoot. That's a flawed approach to deciding when to use deadly force.

For a proper perspective, start thinking about deadly force from the standpoint of when you MUST shoot and the odds are very good that you will not only act appropriately to defend life when it's immediately necessary but also that your actions will be legal.
 
As posted in #11, it does appear that a "bike-jacking" can be responded to with deadly force from the legal side of things, assuming that the rider is placed in fear for his safety and/or life. You would certainlybe legally and morally justified in a shoot if attacked while still on the bike and being forcibly removed from it. If you get in such a situation and actually do so, the headlines will read that the robber "was killed over a bicycle" (assuming he dies.) However, that will not be the case. He will have been killed because he put you in fear for your safety when you tried to interfere with his taking of the bicycle. In other words, you will not have been willing to "kill for a bicycle", but he will have been.
 
I would be curious if a bike would be the same as a car, for the Castle Doctrine Law? Not sure there, I need to do some homework. It would be your vehicle, not sure on this one.
 
"...can I shoot him?"

You sound...eager. :uhoh:;)

IMHO, such questions miss the point: I'll shoot someone if and only if I have no other choice to save innocent life or limb. Period. So, any time you ask yourself "can I?"--don't.

Really simplifies the legal aspect, doesn't it?

Guns and C&Cs do not confer magic or royal powers: they cannot prevent "bike-jackings", and do not allow you to shoot your retreating robber in the back as he's leaving.

(Yeah, yeah: TX at night. I know.)
 
I'm simply trying to plan how I should handle these situations before they occur.

Now THAT is the question!

As others have said, theft or robbery are not lawful justifications for the use of lethal force. (Anywhere except TX ... and the crowd says :rolleyes: ...) If you assault someone with a deadly weapon and/or kill them, the only way a DA or jury can set aside the guilt for that death is to find that you were FORCED to take that action in order to save your life, save the life of another, prevent grievous injury, or one or two other forcible felonies like rape or arson of an occupied structure. You will have to show that you had a reasonable belief that the person you assaulted or killed had the means and the opportunity to do you this terrible harm, and was going to RIGHT THAT MOMENT.

As lousy as it is, someone (only) stealing your bicycle -- even if they knock you down in the process -- isn't threatening your life. And, further, once they've knocked you down and stolen your bike and are riding away, there is no further threat to your life, so your 'justification' for shooting and/or killing them does not exist. That would be murder, and yes, you would likely be convicted of it! (Even if not, you'll spend years and every penny you've ever had in defending yourself in court.)

So, back to your new question... what should you do?

This branches into a conversation for our "Strategy, Tactics, and Training" forum, but in short -- use your brain to avoid these situations rather than try to react to them in the moment.

1) Plan your route to avoid any known trouble spots. Go out of your way to NOT ride through the areas these things commonly happen. That's a pain. Oh well -- so what? You may indeed DIE one day if you don't take steps to avoid at least the areas where you know trouble often occurs.

2) Look FAR ahead -- at the environment. Think about what is appearing in your view at least 10-20 seconds ahead of where you are now. Look for the ambush points. If you keep going that way will you have to cross in front of a blind alley? Is there some pinch point coming up where you'll have to slow down to negotiate some area? Is the route you're taking going to make you pass between or beside large parked vehicles that could be shielding someone looking to jump a victim? Where will you be most vulnerable?

3) Look FAR ahead -- at people. Look for suspicious people and just "people" in general. Avoid them. You do no good to ever ride your bike very close to pedestrians anyway (even someone meaning no harm can run into you, bump you, distract you, etc.), so plan ahead to pass beyond the reach of someone (and certainly a GROUP of someones) loitering on the sidewalk or corner -- in fact stay outside the distance you think they could cover at a RUN. As you do approach an occupied location, watch far ahead for suspicious movements and repositioning.

4) Know the area as well as possible. If you can, be familiar with alternate routes and other usable streets along your paths. Know which routes are broad and accommodating, with few pinch points. Know which paths narrow down dangerously, or end in dead-ends. Know what areas are pretty well-traveled, with lots of witnesses, and which are less occupied and shielded from view...don't go there.

5) Always be ready to change direction and route. Don't second-guess 'silly' little warnings your eyes give you. Expect that you'll overreact and turn away 'needlessly' 99 times out of 100, but that 100th time you'll save your bike, injuries, and/or your life.
 
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