I encountered a bad situation yesterday

[gamestalker]

Yesterday morning I was woke up from a dead sleep by my dog going ballistic outside my window. I jumped up and looked out the window to see this guy stealing my Son's BMX bike. i jumped out of bed, grabbed my pants and keys, and yes my sidearm and took chase in my car. I live in a rural area and since I saw which direction he went I knew I had a good chance of finding him rather quickly, which I did. When I caught up to him I pulled up beside him and simply told him he was caught, and take the bike back to my house. He looked at me with an aggressive peer, rather than the usual, I'm caught, or the deer caught in the head lights look. The next thing I know he's pulling a huge knife from under his shirt, which was concealed in his shorts in a sheath. He didn't know i had my weapon though, as I didn't display it, why would I. But before he got the knife completely out I had my .357 pointed at him and yelled, don't even think about it! He froze, but he still didn't display any normal signs of being caught in the act and then complied by riding the bike back toward my house. When I got to my house, and as he was riding up into my property, which is 2 acre or so lot, I ran inside to grab my cell phone to call LE cause I considered him a dangerous threat. But as I ran inside, my wife ran outside the front door, ignoring me yelling, stay inside, and she found herself being threatened by this crazed perp, who now had the knife in his hand and was threatening and waving the knife at her. I was back outside and intervened before he got any closer to her. He fled, refusing to comply with my order to drop the knife and lay on the ground. One LEO arrived on scene several minutes later, but he really didn't seem to consider it much of a concern.

The only thing the LEO said was that the crook nearly got himself shot, and maybe he'll think twice before stealing from anyone else. And good thing you grabbed your weapon before giving chase. Are you kidding me? How about you try to catch him before he actually uses that 12" blade on some poor unarmed individual. LE didn't even send an investigator out to pull finger prints from the bike which would have been all over, it being that this guy didn't have gloves on, and had to grab the frame to remove it from the hanging hooks it was suspended on.

GS

 

[Torian]

All this over a BMX bike? This guy was willing to pull a knife on someone for something so petty. Just shows you how primitive the mind of a criminal can be these days.

The perp probably doesn't realize just how close he came to getting shot. If someone came onto my property, pulled a knife, and threatened myself or loved ones, they have already crossed the line for me for responding with lethal force.

That said, it looks like you used great judgement with your firearm. You were forced to brandish your weapon, but doing so caused the perp to disengage and flee the scene. The legality of such a move can often be called into question, but it's honestly better than having to drop the hammer on someone. I think it was the right move as well.

Close call...glad everyone made it out ok.

Regarding the disinterest by the responding LEO: I had a similar incident where we had a break in while I was in the house. There was such a high frequency of break ins in my area that LEOs had more or less stopped investigating them seriously unless there was a weapon involved. My guy wasn't a violent offender, and merely walked off when confronted.

I would follow up with a call to the supervisor of the responding LEO.

 

[gamestalker]

I couldn't hardly believe it myself, over a bike? Some criminals are just wired that way I guess, and they consider a crime worthy of doing anything necessary to get away with it.

I spoke with my Son this morning, he works in LE, and he said the same thing about having LE reconsider doing some more investigative work, this guy is potentially very dangerous. As I said in my initial post, what's going to happen when he is confronted by someone not capable of defending their self. But like you said, and very relative to this incident, our neighborhood is a hot spot for theft and burglary, so LE doesn't want to, or have the resources do the foot work with so many thefts occurring on a daily basis in this rural area. So far, we've had a motorcycle stolen, a car, and a couple of car sound systems, and about 8 or 9 bikes stolen over the last few years. Of those thefts LE only followed through with one, which was the motorcycle which they found that same day. Of the others, my family and I recovered all but 1 or 2 of the stolen bikes, and we recovered the car. It kind of angers me that with very little effort we were able to accomplish such a high recovery rate, and we don't have the resources they have.

GS

 

[Gordon]

As with most things in this country lately, unless LEOs catch someone in the act and can catch them,
or see someone they can revenue source for a percieved transgression, or domestic violence Golden Fleece,
or tape a crime scene;
they just don't care because that is what they have been told to do!

 

[DNS]

Pepper spray in a situation like that could have given you many minutes of entertainment prior to johnny law showing up.

I'd suggest pepper spray for everyone in the house because IMHO I'd be wondering if he's twisted enough to come back.

 

[Trent]

If that happened in IL the bad guy would have called the cops and the good guy with a gun would have been arrested for assault with a deadly weapon for pointing it at them.

Guess it's a good thing you are in Arizona.

Wish I were.

 

[gamestalker]

How true Trent. I love this state in that respect. The LEO wasn't even concerned about the fact that I had displayed my firearm. He actually interrupted me as I was reestablishing why I displayed the weapon, and then assured me I was completely and legally justified.
But again, what really eats away at me is that LE isn't interested in pursuing this dangerous individual. And I'm also concerned that he may be capable of retaliating.

GS

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

The first thing that came to my mind was why did you chase after him over a bike?

I get that it's your house and your stuff, but couldn't this be seen as unnecessarily provoking a confrontation? If not even from a moral standpoint, then a legal one?

Basically, was it wise to pursue him?

 

[JVaughn]

We shouldn't feel that we don't have the right to defend our property if someone steals "just a whatever." Glad no one was hurt, but I think you were within your rights to pursue.

 

[jhb]

Good that it ended without you or your family harmed by a crazy.

I used to think all people could be reasoned with and/or stopped by force. Luckily most can but not all.

I was walking to grab a sandwich in an poor and industrial area where I work years back. Yound adult on bicycle came up and said give me a smoke. Told him no...he then said fine ill just beat you and take your whole pack. I chuckled cause I didn't think this kid was serious, but I was wrong. He then got off the bike and came at me....so I avoided his charge. I tried to reason with him and got no where. I was armed but I'm not gonna shoot a 20 year old over a pack of smokes, and at worst a few punches. I believe even if I had warned him I was armed he would have kept coming at me. I eventually made the dash the last 20 yards or so to the sandwich shop and he hung outside waiting..so I called the cops and they chased him off.

Sorry for the Long story, but what i learned is that there are some dangerous, violent, unreasonable folks out there. Glad I was able to avoid conflict that results in people getting hurt or killed, and glad you were also.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

TERRIBLE IDEA!!!
It's easy to underestimate how quickly an individual with a knife can close ground. A man with a knife can close 21 feet before you can draw from and open carried holster. It sounds like in this case it was the exception but not the rule. Don't think just having a gun makes a knife any less lethal. Bullets don't always drop targets on the first shot, and they're still coming as the second and third are fired.
Pepper spray is fine for aggressive dogs, and animals, but a knife wielding assailant has the serious upper hand. Not all people are effected the same by pepper spray and a visually impaired slashing maniac is only slightly less deadly than one with full control.
It's fortunate that this situation didn't escalate to a corpse, or worse.

 

[Torian]

TERRIBLE IDEA!!!
It's easy to underestimate how quickly an individual with a knife can close ground. A man with a knife can close 21 feet before you can draw from and open carried holster. It sounds like in this case it was the exception but not the rule. Don't think just having a gun makes a knife any less lethal. Bullets don't always drop targets on the first shot, and they're still coming as the second and third are fired.
Pepper spray is fine for aggressive dogs, and animals, but a knife wielding assailant has the serious upper hand. Not all people are effected the same by pepper spray and a visually impaired slashing maniac is only slightly less deadly than one with full control.
It's fortunate that this situation didn't escalate to a corpse, or worse.

So your saying that he shouldn't have drawn his weapon? Just hope for the best when it comes to a lunatic with a knife? Or are you referring to his pursuit in his vehicle.

That 21 ft rule is often cited but a load of nonsense in my opinion. We conducted plenty of training when I was an instructor that demonstrated otherwise.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

The 21 foot rule is null and void in this case since he gave Chase in an auto. In TX He could have been shot on the spot. Other states are not as nice about it.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

I was referring specifically to the pepper spray comment.
As far as the 21 foot rule goes, it's a good point of reference but not carved in stone, as there are too many variables such as individual fitness, reflex, terrain, holster, knife (in hand or in pocket) etcetera. That doesn't mean one should simply surrender because the other party has a knife, I just see too many people who believe that a knife isn't any threat just because they have a gun.
In regards to the OP's situation I believe many of us would have reacted similarly, myself included. I think all in all he did the right thing, though forcing the thief back to his residence at gun point, might be a serious issue in the case of an anti-gun prosecutor, or LEO on the scene. Sometimes we're forced to think on our feet, and I believe the OP was within his rights.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Glad everything worked out. Watch your back for a while. Always always carry. Your wife too. If she doesn't, it's time to make her carry. I don't give a crap how politically incorrect it sounds.

These scumbags don't think like normal folks. In his mind, you messed with him by stopping him from stealing from you.

 

[gamestalker]

Pepper spray is an optional deterrent if your dealing with someone who is not displaying a weapon, an advancing dog, and considering one is able to fight back and not disabled like me, or you don't feel as though your life could be in serious jeopardy. I'll continue to carry my sidearm, as I have for the last 40 some years.

As for not chasing down someone taking my property, I have every right, I am not going to just watch as someone takes my belongings.

And I am ever watchful for retaliation from this guy. He was just far to belligerent, and then to have threatened my wife right after having dealt with me at gun point, that kind of sends chills up my spine, as to his state of mind and capability.

Thanks all for your support and suggestions. All is fine now, and I pray I have seen the last of this man.

GS

 

[BLB68]

Since nobody else has said it: Sending the guy back to your house with the bike and his knife wasn't exactly sound thinking.

I'm glad the incident fell out in your favor with the law, and with no injuries.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Congratulations, and I say, good for you.

I have one correction to your description, though. You did not encounter a bad situation. You had one thrust upon you. Then you had a choice: You chose to participate in the bad situation. My opinion: It was the right thing to do.

Some will point out that it was a risky thing to do. Some would even suggest that you should have let the bike thief succeed. That is a choice. Not an American choice (That means YOU, Mayor Bloomberg!)

Congratulations on a job well done. There were some minor mistakes, which have been pointed out. So, learn from your experience and be prepared to do better if there is a next time. And thank you for serving up a lesson to this thief and assailant in the making.

Lost Sheep

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

Gamestalker, Good work keeping the bike. I think so much of the problem we have with crime is attributed to the fact that criminals (hardened ones) dont really think the average guy is going ot do anything about the crimes they commit. And so they walk all over poeple, knowing if that they evade the law theres nothing to stop them at all. Congrats on giving that moron the opportunity of thinking twice about whether or not he should commit his next crime. And congrats on being a man.

 

[azgun]

Personally I would have disarmed him of his knife before sending him back to my house. I am glad you and your family are okay.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

I was referring specifically to the pepper spray comment.
As far as the 21 foot rule goes, it's a good point of reference but not carved in stone, as there are too many variables such as individual fitness, reflex, terrain, holster, knife (in hand or in pocket) etcetera. That doesn't mean one should simply surrender because the other party has a knife, I just see too many people who believe that a knife isn't any threat just because they have a gun.
In regards to the OP's situation I believe many of us would have reacted similarly, myself included. I think all in all he did the right thing, though forcing the thief back to his residence at gun point, might be a serious issue in the case of an anti-gun prosecutor, or LEO on the scene. Sometimes we're forced to think on our feet, and I believe the OP was within his rights.

You forgot one valuable variable. TRAINING. If someone from 21 feet can get to you faster then you can draw. Then either be willing to take a stab wound and shoot. (probably the way my dumb brain would think to do it) or train for it and be ready to disarm someone weilding a knife. Its highly unlikely the perp would be trained in knife fighting skills. Stab wounds can be pretty nasty though, Perhaps I'll get some more training. By the way... when I say take a stab wound I dont mean throw your jugular at the guy. If he swings the knife try to block it as safely as possible... with the worst case scenerio being you get your arms hacked to bits. I took krav maga for some time... and my instructer was a VERY skilled knife fighter. He always said better to get stitches than end up in ditches. In that amount of time though you should be able to draw and fire. As long as youve trained enough with your pistol and holster as well I just realised that a lot of us are probably pretty unprepared for that type of situation!

 

[Sentryau2]

My experience is that the 21 feet rule is BS its more like 16 feet if he dosent know I'm going to charge. We did this test at my dojo just to see and we had different people. Grandmaster jack, his wife (another master), john (20 year old jym rat) mat (a body builder with an mma background) ashley a 19 year old girl and me the skinny teenager. We were testing this with lipstick knives (plastic knives with flimsy blades coated with red lipstick, white T-shirts and airsoft pistols. At 21 feet we got shot We considered one shot center mass to stop the threat everytime (not realistic) However the one armed with the knife was usually within 2-5feet. An ambush situation is obvious a knife attack from behind, not likely you will survive if its a prison style rush with a large knife. at 16 feet before the one armed with the gun could get a shot off they had been stabbed 2-12 times unless they knew who was going to charge but even then the one armed with a gun was stabbed once or twice.
Another thing to add, do NOT try to disarm someone with a knife. Unless they have slow reflexes you will get cut. A taser like the one police are issued is your best bet. Its nothing like in the movies, a knife is like a 6 foot sphere of dont [] touch me. However if the one attacker is not paying attention a tire iron or big (preferably long) wrench is effective at making someone loose their grip on almost anything (even a foam baton will cripple you)
A strike to the back of the wrist crevice (where all thoes nice tendons are) will make the hand inoperable (if its a precise strike) Or a strike on the edge of the forarm on the inside of the wrist (if struck with too much force it can result in life lasting damage) My friend no longer has 40% use of his left wrist to do an accident involving a bokken. Training is the most important thing tho. I dont think anyone is going to try attacking Yosemite Sam with a knife

 

[HexHead]

If a guy was threatening my wife with a knife, he's likely gonna get get shot.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by gamestalker: I jumped up and looked out the window to see this guy stealing my Son's BMX bike. i jumped out of bed, grabbed my pants and keys, and yes my sidearm and took chase in my car.

I'm not quite sure what your intent was, but had anything serious happened, that would have become the key question.

When I caught up to him I pulled up beside him and simply told him he was caught, and take the bike back to my house.

Fine thing to try to recover the bike without using excessive force, but why in the world would you ever command the thief to go with you?

The next thing I know he's pulling a huge knife from under his shirt, which was concealed in his shorts in a sheath. ... But before he got the knife completely out I had my .357 pointed at him and yelled, don't even think about it!

That sure could have ended poorly.

But as I ran inside, my wife ran outside the front door, ignoring me yelling, stay inside, and she found herself being threatened by this crazed perp, who now had the knife in his hand and was threatening and waving the knife at her.

A bad situation gets a lot worse....

He fled, refusing to comply with my order to drop the knife and lay on the ground.

"Ordering" someone in a situation such as this to lie on the ground is a poor idea. There is nothing you can do about it if they do not comply, and you are at risk while they stay if they do.

The only thing the LEO said was that the crook nearly got himself shot, and maybe he'll think twice before stealing from anyone else. And good thing you grabbed your weapon before giving chase.

Those comments were useless and poorly framed.

LE didn't even send an investigator out to pull finger prints from the bike which would have been all over, it being that this guy didn't have gloves on, and had to grab the frame to remove it from the hanging hooks it was suspended on.

That should give some indication of the seriousness that law enforcement attributes to the crime of taking your BMX bike. Yet you were willing to risk injury or death, the use of deadly force, and the end of your life as you have known it to tell the man to return to the house and lie on the ground.

 

[Sam1911]

So you escalated a confrontation, were threatened with a lethal weapon, forced someone to go somewhere against their will at gunpoint, brought an aggressive ARMED criminal back to your home where he was able to threaten (and we must presume KILL if he'd really wanted to) your WIFE, and now you have a legitimate fear of retaliation.

But you kept the bicycle.

There's a lot of math that just doesn't add up. Many very serious legal and dire physical risks for EXTREMELY low reward. (Except the ever-critical REAL MAN desire to DEFEND MAH STUFF! Which is a prime example of emotion and ego running utterly rough-shod over all possible logic.)

Hey, all's well that ends. Well, if it has ended. Guess we won't know that for a while, if ever. Sure hope so.