I encountered a bad situation yesterday

[beatledog7]

Lots of combat ninjas posting about this incident.

There's not a bicycle on the planet worth all this. Swallow your pride. Let the guy have the bike. File a claim with your homeowner's insurance carrier. Buy a new bike.

What is it that makes some gun owners believe that since they have a gun they must find ways to make relatively benign situations justify using it?

 

[HOOfan_1]

So were you posting your story asking for advice? All I have to say is, no one here was in your shoes that day, and the only ones who really have a right to judge you wear black robes and sit behind a tall desk with a gavel.

 

[Sam1911]

only ones who really have a right to judge you wear black robes and sit behind a tall desk with a gavel.

Of course, you are not JUDGED by a judge. You are tried by a "fair and impartial" jury of folks from your area who will be instructed (better than you are) in what the law exactly says, and how it is applied, and then will be presented with evidence which either tries to show that you DID meet the law's requirements or that you did not.

Having said that, we are not gathered here (at THR) to judge, but to discuss the practical, tactical, and legal possibilities in play.

As the great "Demotivational" poster says, "It may be that your purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others."

 

[HOOfan_1]

As the great "Demotivational" poster says, "It may be that your purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others."

No doubt...our government is very fond of making examples of people

But some of the stuff I have seen in this thread seems more like judgment and less like friendly advice.

 

[Averageman]

I would have given chase, as I hate a thief, but..
I dont leave the house without my cell anymore, not even to the gym that is a block away. Call 911 as you go out the door, stay on the line.
Now when I drive I take my holstered pistol and transfer it to a holster in the car or truck I am driving so that it is easily to reach and secure while I'm behind the wheel.
If I were to recover my property I would stay right there until the already called officer arrived. We aren't leaving together.
Never try and subdue a thief or make him move from one point or another.
And in the words of WC Fields,
Never give a Sucker an even brake....That knife thing would have been the end of the whole issue for me.

 

[Sam1911]

No doubt...our government is very fond of making examples of people

Not sure what the government would have to do with a situation like this. There are two possibilities I can see which might be described as "making an example of..." the OP:

1) A jury of citizens finding that someone's actions were unlawful and convicts them of a crime.
2) The situation ends as it often does in a "defender" (or as it nearly was here, his wife) being maimed or killed by the criminal or his accomplices.

The government isn't going to get involved in this in any way.

 

[HOOfan_1]

The government isn't going to get involved in this in any way.

Prosecutors work for the government. The government decides if an offense is worthy of being charged.

 

[Pilot]

It is easy to Monday morning quarterback, as we have time to think about the situation. However, I know myself, and I would not pursue someone outside my house to get back a possession. That leaves you, and your family exposed should this guy have an accomplice, or lose you, and circle back. It also can and did put you in a life threatening situation upon confrontation. We are taught to avoid confrontation unless all other options to save life and limb are exhausted.

I would hunker down INSIDE my locked home, and protect my family while calling 911.

 

[Torian]

Personally I would have disarmed him of his knife before sending him back to my house. I am glad you and your family are okay.

How would you have achieved that exactly? Even with a gun pointed at him, the perp never dropped his weapon. Some other posters have already stated this, but a firearm doesn't necessarily give you control over someone with a knife.

I'm still amazed how unimpressed this guy was with your pointing a gun at him. I agree that you should definitely be on the look out for him to possibly return in the future.

After being burglarized so many times, I can't blame you for getting fed up with it.

 

[stumpers]

I am not justifying thievery, but why has the OP had so much stuff stolen?

My first inclination is to make things harder to steal, not plan how I'm going to respond when they are stolen because I allowed them to be easily taken.

I've said it before - stuff isn't worth dying or killing over, that's what insurance is for.

 

[X-Rap]

The OP has certainly had his share of critical encounters as well as a high frequency of theft.
Part of my plan would be to change some habits.

 

[Torian]

The OP has certainly had his share of critical encounters as well as a high frequency of theft.
Part of my plan would be to change some habits.

I would agree, however it appears from the OP that these people are coming onto HIS property and stealing stuff. If moving isn't an option, he has very few choices left save cowering in his residence and putting bars on all the windows and doors.

I have lived in some crime-ridden areas of the country due to prior monetary issues. I can assure you I didn't want to live there, but based on my employment and wages, it was all I could afford at the time. We also had overwhelmed / unhelpful LEOs in our area due to high frequency of crimes. It was a very frustrating time. I had my car broken into, vandalized, tires slashed, apartment broken into, multiple times over five years before I could afford to get out of there. Thousands of dollars in damages. At times I thought about staking an area out and waiting with a firearm, but cooler heads prevailed.

 

[RedBowTies88]

If that happened in IL the bad guy would have called the cops and the good guy with a gun would have been arrested for assault with a deadly weapon for pointing it at them.

Guess it's a good thing you are in Arizona.

Wish I were.

Not just IL

At least very soon you will be able to leave your home with a weapon, while I still make due with >1oz of pepper

OP, I'm glad it worked out and no one was injured. If I'm understanding you correctly you instructed him to return with the stolen property BEFORE he produced the knife?

 

[BLB68]

If moving isn't an option, he has very few choices left save cowering in his residence and putting bars on all the windows and doors.

There are a LOT of security steps that can be taken that don't turn someone into a prisoner in their own home, and they're all cheaper than dealing with any of the ugly alternatives had pursuing the thief gone wrong. Or should it go wrong in the future, because this may not be over. So, this is a false dilemma argument, and an appeal to emotion.

The bottom line is the OP decided to act as a LEO, but without any of the advantages in mindset, skill set or tool set that a LEO has in performing the job. I didn't bust his chops in detail in my first post in the thread, because I figured some of the mods would point out the issues, and probably do a better job of it.

Everyone praising this action needs to start reading ST&T a lot more and commenting a lot less. The entire handling of the incident showed poor judgment and poor knowledge of both the law and criminal behavior.

Anyone who thinks escalating a situation from a property crime to a possible violent crime was called for needs to reevaluate their thinking. The OP placed himself at risk, left his family unattended, and then brought an armed criminal back to his house where he failed to keep his wife from danger and failed to control the suspect. The complete breakdown in rational thought here should be sobering.

 

[Kleanbore]

^^^^^^

That's a pretty good summary.

The entire handling of the incident showed poor judgment and poor knowledge of both the law and criminal behavior.

Yes indeed.

Upon reflection, I think it would be difficult to come up with a better description of what not to do, fictional or true.

It should serve as food for thought for others.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I'm still amazed how unimpressed this guy was with your pointing a gun at him.

You shouldn't be. AND you should be prepared to have it happen to you as well, if you are unlucky in criminal roulette.

A good number of street thugs are genuine combat veterans, and are quite accustomed to verbal abuse, physical violence, being threatened with blades and firearms, and being cut/shot.

The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team "did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don't hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant."

"Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms," the report states. "In fact, the street combat veterans survived by developing a shoot-first mentality." -- http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_cop_killers.asp

 

[Tcruse]

It would have been nice if the "cell phone" would have been part of the stuff that you grabbed. Also, for me the threat would not have been stopped until you had control of the knife.

 

[Averageman]

The additional niceties with a current cell phone is the ability to record pictures and movies with it and to stay on the line with the PD as you follow a thief like the OP mentioned.
I once called in and reported a Drunk Driver and followed him for nearly 20 miles (at a distance) until the PD picked up the pursuit. All the while giving location updates.
After 15 minutes they caught up with him right before he got on the highway and after 3 near head on collisons.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Tcruse: Also, for me the threat would not have been stopped until you had control of the knife.

Yes, the man remained dangerous as long as he had the knife.

That would not justify the OP's use of deadly force, however.

Here is the law in his jurisdiction:

One cannot provoke a fight and then act in self-defense, unless (a) he first withdraws from the fight or clearly communicates his intent to withdraw, but reasonably believes he cannot safely withdraw, and (b) the other person nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful physical or deadly force against him. A.R.S. § 13-404(B)(3)(a) & (b).

No one should conclude for a moment that the thief's having taken a bicycle alters that in any way.

 

[X-Rap]

Yea, not much fault in keeping tabs on the guy from a distance so long as you have communication with LE and have reason to belive they will at some point intersect your route.
Having a gun and being able and prepared to use it is hardly ever a bad idea but forcing an armed criminal back to the scene of the crime and your family can NEVER be a good idea.

 

[j1]

In the state of Pa only an LEO can pursue a criminal leaving the scene of a crime. If you shot him outside of your home where self defense is legal you would have become the criminal and been arrested. Know the law where you live.

 

[Speedo66]

The responding cop is not the end all, be all.

Get on the phone, and start calling his superior, the chief/sheriff, your local politicians.

Just because the cop won't take action doesn't mean others won't when pushed.

 

[BLB68]

In the state of Pa ...

The OP lives in AZ. Citing PA law is pointless.

The admonition to know his own law is spot on.

 

[Kleanbore]

Just because the cop won't take action doesn't mean others won't when pushed.

Not much for the police to do, other than file a report. Many departments do not take fingerprints even in the event of attempted burglaries.

For a BMX bike? Not worth it to the taxpayers, not by a long shot.

A video of the man pulling the knife would be another matter. But it could backfire on the OP.

 

[slidemuzik]

It took 30 posts before somebody mentioned your cell phone. That was the most important and primary tool you had at your disposal. If you had your phone with you, there would have been no need to confront the guy. You could have followed at a distance and called 911. Most have the ability to video him for ID.
Everybody should get in the habit of taking your phone with them everywhere. Always. Even cutting the grass. I think if you carry your weapon more than your phone, you might re-evaluate your approach.