I encountered a bad situation yesterday
- Thread starter gamestalker
- Start date
- Status
slidemuzik
Member
Thanks Klean. Not to hijack, but just to test the theory...
Quick poll to the LEOs here... If you had to go out for your shift and had to pick only one... what would you take with you, your radio or your sidearm?
Quick poll to the LEOs here... If you had to go out for your shift and had to pick only one... what would you take with you, your radio or your sidearm?
A BMX bike can range from a few hundred dollars to several thousand. I dont blame the OP not wanting to let some punk take his stuff. My grandfather and my elders always tell stories about how they only had a few LEOs in the community and how most of the time they fended for themselves, be it from home invasion or theft. The punishment for theft needs to be more severe. Start making examples out of thieves and I bet crime would drop.
No one is blaming him for what he did not want to have happen.
But he put himself and his wife at risk of getting stabbed and/or shot with his own firearm, and he put himself at risk of serious criminal and civil liability.
- He armed himself and got in his car and drove after the thief, leaving his wife alone, to retrieve a bike--without notifying law enforcement
- He told the thief to return to his house.
- He drew his firearm after having instigated the encounter himself.
- Finally deciding to call the police, he went inside his house, leaving the thief unattended.
- At that point, his wife left the house and was endangered by a dangerous man armed with a knife.
- He attempted to detain the thief at gunpoint.
The only thing that he did right that I can think of right now is to not shoot the man when he refused to comply with an order to lie on the ground.
There is no property that is worth that kind of risk. All downside, no upside.
He is very lucky. Let us learn from this incident and from the discussion here. What not to do has been discussed. What to do has also been suggested.
What should it be? What is it now?
gamestalker
member
I think most here provided me with good sound advice, I thank you. However, when all of this occurred I was sound asleep with my primary weapon at my side, something I've been doing for nearly 50 yrs.. Some of you know of a few of my personal encounters with criminals, of which had nothing to do with me pursuing or engaging them, but rather being randomly attacked, kidnapped, made to beg for my life with a gun shoved in my mouth, watch as my wife is made to beg for her life, on two separate, random, and unrelated occasions, robbed, had two attempts on my life by two criminals trying to blow my wife and I up in our car TWICE, just for refusing to pretend I saw nothing, when in fact, I saw everything and testified against them in court, just to mention a few such incidents. So yes, I am fed up with criminals which is an under statement, and it has no doubt effected my approach to these murderous individuals. I am not the average statistic by any stretch, I fall into the .00001% I would imagine. But I will not stand by and watch a criminal have his way, I will defend my property, my family, and anyone else who is in need of help. Only a coward would bow down to criminals, I've known a few who will simply look the other way while some innocent person is being attacked. It's wrong to allow crime to prevail! I won't suggest to anyone that they lay down their weapon and surrender to the bad guy, that's just ridiculous and cowardly in my opinion. I raised my children to take a stand against crime, with two in the armed forces, one in LE, and all willing to risk their life for any one of you just because you need help. Not because they want to be hero's, but because they believe that doing the right and just thing, trumps all else in a world of turmoil that is rampant with crime. Anyone having walked in my shoes for the last 45 yrs. might find their self rather fed up too, to put it mildly. And just to better clarify my purpose in posting this recent encounter in the first place, which I included in my first post, I was interested in addressing how poorly LE handled this incident, being that he is a dangerous person and needs to be pursued by someone, LE would be my first thought. Some mentioned moving away from the criminal element. Let me tell you this, I have moved 3 times since 2008 in an attempt to find a safer neighborhood, which brought me to this rural area I now live in, and based on much research. But it appears most don't report crime, but rather, just look the other way. which explains why my research came up short again.
As he took off with the bike, I was still in a half sleep daze and didn't think to grab my phone. And to add to that, I have only owned this technology for less than a year, ever, and have difficulty even remembering to take it with me at any other time. I'm elderly, disabled and made some mistakes, not the first time either. But as for disarming the perp, I was experiencing a health problem immediately following him going for the knife, specifically my heart, and needed to get home and take medication, which I deliberately avoided mentioning as I didn't want to get further thrashed by some for having pursued this individual being physically disadvantaged. But I was also very intent in making that phone call to LE in hope they could have caught him. In other words, I had a whole lot going on, much more than I had expected. Would I have done some things differently, of course, we always look at how we handled a situation, providing you've ever been faced one like this, and then wish in one hand, while we #$%& in the other.
My initial intention was to catch up to him, ask him to return it, and call it a day. If trying to retrieve one's property from a thief is out of character for most, than please be my guest and send that message to the bad guy, they seek out individuals of weak character.
If this incident can serve for others as a message of what not to do, then it has indeed served a purpose. But my concern was, and still is, how poorly LE has, and is addressing it.
As for citing state laws, I won't engage others on that. If you don't live in Arizona, you may not be familiar with our laws. I didn't produce a weapon until I had been confronted with a deadly weapon, which would not have been illegal in Az. if one's safety and welfare is being threatened, I didn't discharge the weapon, but I was prepared to if necessary, thank God it wasn't necessary. But we do have very different self defense laws than most states, and most LE endorse and support them here.
"When seconds count, the police are minutes away"
GS
As he took off with the bike, I was still in a half sleep daze and didn't think to grab my phone. And to add to that, I have only owned this technology for less than a year, ever, and have difficulty even remembering to take it with me at any other time. I'm elderly, disabled and made some mistakes, not the first time either. But as for disarming the perp, I was experiencing a health problem immediately following him going for the knife, specifically my heart, and needed to get home and take medication, which I deliberately avoided mentioning as I didn't want to get further thrashed by some for having pursued this individual being physically disadvantaged. But I was also very intent in making that phone call to LE in hope they could have caught him. In other words, I had a whole lot going on, much more than I had expected. Would I have done some things differently, of course, we always look at how we handled a situation, providing you've ever been faced one like this, and then wish in one hand, while we #$%& in the other.
My initial intention was to catch up to him, ask him to return it, and call it a day. If trying to retrieve one's property from a thief is out of character for most, than please be my guest and send that message to the bad guy, they seek out individuals of weak character.
If this incident can serve for others as a message of what not to do, then it has indeed served a purpose. But my concern was, and still is, how poorly LE has, and is addressing it.
As for citing state laws, I won't engage others on that. If you don't live in Arizona, you may not be familiar with our laws. I didn't produce a weapon until I had been confronted with a deadly weapon, which would not have been illegal in Az. if one's safety and welfare is being threatened, I didn't discharge the weapon, but I was prepared to if necessary, thank God it wasn't necessary. But we do have very different self defense laws than most states, and most LE endorse and support them here.
"When seconds count, the police are minutes away"
GS
Yes indeed.
Realistically, LE cannot make put a lot of priority on the simple theft of a a BMX bike. Where I live, they do not send car out to investigate auto theft.
And you had absolutely no objective evidence to give than regarding the man with the knife. Frankly, however, that may keep you out of trouble.
I do not, but I am.
The issue is not so much that you were confronted with a deadly weapon, but that the drawing of the knife occurred after a confrontaion that was initiated by you. At that point, it was incumbent upon you to attempt to retreat.
Not really. The duty to retreat has been eliminated, but that is true in many juridictions, and it does not excuse the starting of a confrontation. And there's the defensive display provision, but the actor may not have started the confrontation.
Interesting and likely true, but their views are irrelevant.
Laws aside, you put yourself and your spouse in danger. The fact that the man was apparently non-plussed by your display of a weapon may indicate the degree of danger, but you were there, and the rest of us were not.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Well Thank the Lord No one got killed.
Potatohead
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2013
- Messages
- 5,375
Hate to pile on here, but this made me think-that dude coulda been a decoy to pull you out of your house while his crew ransacked the place
Torian
Member
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2013
- Messages
- 1,016
I'd like to know how many people commenting on this thread have actually been robbed or, victims of burglary at their residence, or had to draw their weapon at some point in their lives?
All of the above for me.
Not disagreeing necessarily in the "sound" advice given on this thread, but I'm wondering just how many of us have been in the shoes of the OP, before we judge his actions too harshly. Right or wrong, having such an experience can give you a unique perspective on life.
All of the above for me.
Not disagreeing necessarily in the "sound" advice given on this thread, but I'm wondering just how many of us have been in the shoes of the OP, before we judge his actions too harshly. Right or wrong, having such an experience can give you a unique perspective on life.
ottohund
Member
According to some of the responses here, I gather that the OP should move to a crime.free neighborhoos. In lieu of moving he could always learn how to live in a crime ridden neighborhood. One method is to not have anything worth stealing, or make it look as if it is no good. Somebody used to.steal my waterhose from the front of my house. Everytime I replaced.it, it would be gone in a matter of days. Finally I bought a nice new hose, and cut & spliced it in several places. I put electrical tape over the splices and wrapped rags around the hose in a few places also. That hose stayed in my front yard until I sold the house years later. I quit locking my vehicle after replacing the driver's window. The window cost more than the radio they took. When I needed to get rid of an old tv, I tried setting it in the yard with a sign that stated it was free. After sitting there for two weeks, I put a for sale for $10 sign on it. It was stolen that night. There is a way to live in harmony wit the thieves in this world. Embrace the culture, and become one with it. Might as well Get used to it
.
.
Torian
Member
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2013
- Messages
- 1,016
There is certainly a balance that needs to be struck between total submission and vigilante behavior. Whatever the OP decides, he should not have to cower in fear in his residence hoping for the best.
Regarding your advice:
Telling him to live in harmony with thieves, embrace the culture, and "get used to it" is among the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard of. One wonders what type of advice would you give a rape victim. Harmony is indicative of two or more parties who want to come to some type of reconciliation. Your average criminal is an opportunist, driven by base desires, and would probably care less.
I'll end my commentary here on this thread as I've made my point as clearly as I could have.
JustinJ
Member
I find it difficult to believe anybody, including an AZ jury, would identify the OP as the initiator in this event.
gamestalker
member
Now that I've gathered myself a bit and can see past my strong views regarding crime and those that perpetrate such. I would like to express my sincere regard for Kleanbore and others who reflect a sensible approach and a proper perspective on how easily things can go horribly wrong in the drop of a hat. And I do express this with a sincere and respectful intent Kleanbore. As a moderator your approach in those posts concerning matters of safety and welfare have always been well placed, and project what would be a more ideal approach.
But in my defense, there is just something about facing pure evil with one's life being in the hands of such, time and time again over the course of 45 years that has changed me, or maybe a better description would be, it has sculpted my manner of reaction. I'm a meek 120 lb. man who smiles at everyone and always displays respect for others. But when I'm criminally violated, I will defend myself and family regardless of the odds. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. There is no fine line for me, and there never will be. Ideally I would love to live in a world in which criminals don't present a constant and deadly threat to our existence. But we don't live an ideal world, it's a real world, with some very real human threats. Every day that I wake up, I pray that the Lord Jesus keep his hand upon my family, and myself, and encamp his angles about us. At this point in life, I have no doubt it has been nothing short of faith and divine intervention that has kept us from being seriously harmed or killed.
I'm finished responding, I think we are now beating a dead horse, so please feel free to close this thread if you so choose. Thanks to all for your input and support, God Bless!
GS
But in my defense, there is just something about facing pure evil with one's life being in the hands of such, time and time again over the course of 45 years that has changed me, or maybe a better description would be, it has sculpted my manner of reaction. I'm a meek 120 lb. man who smiles at everyone and always displays respect for others. But when I'm criminally violated, I will defend myself and family regardless of the odds. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. There is no fine line for me, and there never will be. Ideally I would love to live in a world in which criminals don't present a constant and deadly threat to our existence. But we don't live an ideal world, it's a real world, with some very real human threats. Every day that I wake up, I pray that the Lord Jesus keep his hand upon my family, and myself, and encamp his angles about us. At this point in life, I have no doubt it has been nothing short of faith and divine intervention that has kept us from being seriously harmed or killed.
I'm finished responding, I think we are now beating a dead horse, so please feel free to close this thread if you so choose. Thanks to all for your input and support, God Bless!
GS
xxjumbojimboxx
Member
I'm in that boat. I went to college in a crappy area... Real crappy. Think, used to be a place of great industry until it got outsourced and left nothing but ghetto behind... Either way lots of my friends at the time sold drugs. Some of the neighborhood punks thought it would be a good idea to rob some of the drug dealin folk. Glad i dont live that lifestyle anymore, but thats beside the point. There was a night when my buddy was having a party... probably about 20 people, A few of the neighborhood genious busted in the door, only one yeilding a gun. I was standing in the door at my friends bedroom and the gunman gestured me to move backwards into the room... i did... he continued to point the gun at me.. through the door. Thinking quickly I slammed the door on his arm. And pressed his arm as hard as i could... Gunman dropped his gun, and fled with his buddies... I know its easy to be an internet ninja... And believe me, It took all the guts I had to shut that door. I probably broke his arm... I dunno.... But i did it. Either you have it in you to react or you dont.
This is my opinion as well. Two things I don't quite understand that are being emphasized -
(1) He initiated the conflict by attempting to retrieve the bike. So, if you're carrying, you should allow any crime against yourself that doesn't warrant the use of deadly force to go without attempting to stop it in any way other than calling the police?
(2) That the OP's feelings toward the police are unwarranted bc there are bigger fish to fry than a bike theft. The big crime was not a bike theft, it was threat with a deadly weapon
They might, and they might not. There's no way to tell. But of course that would only apply to a possible charge of unlawful display of a weapon. There are other issues.
Had the the thief been shot and killed, the evidence after the fact would be the stolen bike, the fact that the OP had grabbed a gun and pursued a thief, and the dead man with the knife. It would not look good for the OP.
Since no shooting did occur, the evidence after the fact is the stolen bike, the fact that the OP had grabbed a gun and pursued a thief, the knife, the testimony of a man with a gun who would certainly be shown to have been rattled, and the testimony of a thief who said he had drawn a knife because a man had attempted to unlawfully detain him. Ambiguous at the very best.
Excellent question, and one that really deserves answering!
No. Following the man, calling the police, and telling him where he is going would be fine. Video would be better.
Where people get into trouble is when they arm themselves for what they later say was for possible self defense, go forth, and get into a confrontation that goes south. We see that too often here. They have the duty to retreat, even in stand your ground jurisdictions, unless the perp came to them, or was lying in wait for them, for unlawful purposes, or unless it is otherwise clear that the other person somehow initiated the confrontation.
One cannot lawfully allow a confrontation to escalate into one involving the use of deadly force or the threat thereof without having clearly tried to avoid or diffuse it.
Thanks for the question. It seems that we cannot emphasize the importance of that enough.
The threat with a knife materialized after the OP had pursued, and tried to detain, a thief; and the only evidence about what happened is the testimony of the man who had chased him and that of the man with the knife.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Closed per OP request (post 66)
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked