JVaughn
Member
Right on. They call it "profiteering" for a reason, in the pejorative. If it were ethical, they wold call it "legitimate business."
A little Ammo Justice!
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Right on. They call it "profiteering" for a reason, in the pejorative. If it were ethical, they wold call it "legitimate business."
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well now, that takes us outside the realm of luxury purchases such as guns & ammo entirely and into what we could actually call life necessities.
I'm not going to drag this conversation off into the weeds of substitute arguments by giving my theories on whether "gouging" can apply to life necessities or not -- lest I violate THR rules myself--- but suffice it to say, with ammo that analogy has no bearing at all.
Impureclient
Member
Pretty sure I didn't miss copying and pasting anything about "life necessities".
Stress_Test
Member
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+1!!
All the talk lately is about nothing but economics philosophy, socialists, Marxists, communists, and lions and tigers and bears oh my!
I just want some friggin' ammo! :banghead:
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
That depends on many factors just as ambiguous and potentially unrealistic as the notion of someone having a gun, NEEDING to use that gun for some lifesaving purpose, and not having ONE round of ammo to use -- but somehow having the ability to get to a store and buy a box of ammo in time to save their lives if a box was available to buy.
Just on the face of it? Someone doesn't have a round of ammo -- is buying a round of ammo a life necessity? I can't see any clear way, realistically, that it would be.
Just because you don't own ammo, currently, doesn't magically turn ammo into anything but a discretionary purchase.
We have the right to own arms and ammunition. That doesn't mean there is some guarantee that those things will be provided to us or will be available at a cost we can afford. Just like how you have a right to be secure from harm, but that's not a guarantee that you will be secure from harm just because you have a right to such security. Life is hard like that.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
So?
Impureclient
Member
Oh I thought we were debating over whether the gougers/profiteers were doing something wrong. You know unethical or unreasonable "business" practices.
No. But neither of those definitions apply to the current ammo situation. Ammo is neither scarce, in short supply, or rationed(not authoritarian). It has just had a sudden increase in demand. I am not saying profiteering does not exist, but it cannot exist in reference to the current ammo situation.
Please see my post above. The current situation cannot satisfy either of those definitions.
oneounceload
member
GEEZ! This yet AGAIN?
Has no one seen this video? I have posted this link enough already
Watch it, understand and learn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9QEkw6_O6w
Impureclient
Member
Want to see a cool thread?
Post this as the title "Ammo is neither scarce, in short supply, or rationed(not authoritarian)."
That will be a riot.
Post this as the title "Ammo is neither scarce, in short supply, or rationed(not authoritarian)."
That will be a riot.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Simple answer: IF it is possible for someone to "unreasonably take advantage of" someone else by refusing to sell a product to them at a price they like (or can afford), the only way that COULD have some validity is if that person HAD to have that product. I.e: had no choice but to purchase that product, and from that vendor. Occasionally governments step in (for various reasons, few of them altruistic
) and make it illegal to withhold a product from someone who will not pay above a certain mark-up. I'm not going to say that's good or that's bad. It just sometimes is so. Such a conversation is blatantly irrelevant when discussing buying ammunition in our current climate. We ALL have the choice of whether to buy ammo right now. It is TOTALLY voluntary. No one can coerce us to buy or die. There isn't even a legitimate argument that there is only one vendor -- while ammo is scarce, it is indeed available from multiple sources at various, albeit elevated, price points.
So stop claiming that there is some scalping, gouging, "profiteering" aspect to this. It's just a wrong-headed idea.
If you want to shoot, you can buy ammo right now, today. If you don't want to pay the "going rate" -- DON'T. Your life will go on just fine if you don't shoot tomorrow, or this month, or even this year. Like leaving off dinners out, nice cigars, and a new car, that might make your life a little bit less comfortable than you're used to, but stop claiming that that discomfort insinuates a moral crisis.
It most certainly does not!
With respect for Sams response to keep it THR and not stray too far off.
The answer to your question is yes. But situations like that are what Economists call 'market failures.' It is basically when basic market principles break down, usually when a zero sum environment has been created. Another more cited example would be the theory of 'tragedy of the commons.' This is when everyone uses up a public good because they have no incentive not too. Public grazing is the best example. Maintenance of public parks is probably more applicable. Many consider situations like OK today a market failure, albeit a short term one. I will add though that it became a market failure after the storm hit. When it happens beforehand, say plywood the day before a hurricane, it is not considered a market failure. Higher prices ensure people only buy what they need to satisfy what may be a necessity due to higher prices. But that is a different argument.
To apply that to the current ammo situation and keep it applicable to this board, this market is not failing(although not acting as efficient as it could). Ammo is neither scarce nor a life necessity. It cannot, by definition, apply. The reason it is not efficient, and the cause of a lot of frustration, is the reactions people are having by the refusal of the big box retailers to allow ammo to reach its point(Average Sale Price). This is turngint hem into a supplier to those who will. If they would take that incentive away by pricing at market demand the 'evil profiteers' would disappear. Understand that price is not the high price. It is the average sale price. My guess is, for a $500 brick of 22lr, that price should sit near $50. That would run off the 'profiteers' and ensure available inventory.
Tomcat47
Member
The way I see it ..... water and ammo is a necessity when needed, and as brothers in arms, If I have two boxes and you need one in dire straits I will give you one...
People who hoard for sake of profit from the down trodden will get just rewards in end...
In Oklahoma for instance ... if one had a truck load of water he should be giving it away without prejudice and expecting no gain! (my opinion) and those that do it for profit.... may they experience true thirst before they leave this life.
And as far as ammo gougers/profiteers may their greed position them that they may not find one round of ammo in there locker when they truly need it.....
greed works that way!
And as far as Walmart ... I quit trekking to them for my bit of porridge only to find the bowl empty because of the fore mentioned profiteers. Local Gun Stores and Pawn shops have been a treasure to find my little piece of the puzzle... requires a little patience, but I much rather visit them than Walmart!
And As Always: Sam1911 ... You are a Gentleman and a Scholar saying just the right things at the right time!
People who hoard for sake of profit from the down trodden will get just rewards in end...
In Oklahoma for instance ... if one had a truck load of water he should be giving it away without prejudice and expecting no gain! (my opinion) and those that do it for profit.... may they experience true thirst before they leave this life.
And as far as ammo gougers/profiteers may their greed position them that they may not find one round of ammo in there locker when they truly need it.....
greed works that way!
And as far as Walmart ... I quit trekking to them for my bit of porridge only to find the bowl empty because of the fore mentioned profiteers. Local Gun Stores and Pawn shops have been a treasure to find my little piece of the puzzle... requires a little patience, but I much rather visit them than Walmart!
And As Always: Sam1911 ... You are a Gentleman and a Scholar saying just the right things at the right time!
I have to cast my ballot with Sam 1911 on this. To claim profiteering, you must show that the markup is unreasonable. Who has a right to define what a reasonable profit margin is? Now, what these resellers are doing is likely illegal because they are not paying sales tax, or income tax on their profits.
Absolutely not. This is an outstanding discussion regarding market forces surrounding our firearms. It is one of the best threads in weeks. You cant get this kind of discussion many places.
flylo
Member
Sam, I think you did well & I;d be there every night for a week or until the horders quit coming. And I'd pass out a few boxes to the "regular" folks in like to make them happy & p*ss of the horders until they quit or found another place to go. Good Job, but you should keep it up. If you get too much share with people who can't get it or afford it.Be the modern day Robin Hood!
I am pretty ambivalent in regards to the ammo situation.
On one hand, I can't hardly blame folks for making an easy buck off of folks willing to part with their money. What's the saying? A fool and his money are quickly parted? Is it wrong? No. No one is forcing the buyer to buy the goods at absurd prices, they choose to. Is it decent? That's for everyone to decide for themselves.
On the other hand, I certainly wish that folks could get back to business as usual and go shooting as they please for a reasonable cost.
On one hand, I can't hardly blame folks for making an easy buck off of folks willing to part with their money. What's the saying? A fool and his money are quickly parted? Is it wrong? No. No one is forcing the buyer to buy the goods at absurd prices, they choose to. Is it decent? That's for everyone to decide for themselves.
On the other hand, I certainly wish that folks could get back to business as usual and go shooting as they please for a reasonable cost.
danez71
Member
They really aren't "gougers"... they're market manipulators or at least some are attempting to be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation
Commodity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity
But to others unsubstantiated claims, they're are just old people trying to supplement their 'fixed' income and doing everyone a favor by providing a service that... no one wants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation
Commodity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity
But to others unsubstantiated claims, they're are just old people trying to supplement their 'fixed' income and doing everyone a favor by providing a service that... no one wants.
ljnowell
Member
I'm glad I never have to deal with this stuff. I shoot 500 rds a week, sometimes more. All I do is walk in, select what I want off the shelf and go shooting. No dealing with "hoarders" or anyone else. The best part? What I want is ALWAYS in stock!
Ha. I didnt see this posted earlier. But it would be an absolute riot if I would post my quote as a topic. In fact tomorrow I just might do it.
Jlr2267
Member
Keyword: essential, emergency
Impureclient
Member
Words games, neat. OK, I'll try.
I need ammo when a bad guy breaks my door down in an emergency and I need essential ammo to defend my life.
Unfortunately the unethical gougers stripped the ammo off the shelf and are selling it online for an unreasonable amount.
Now somebody do this one: Profiteer:a person who makes excessive profits, especially by charging exorbitant prices for goods in short supply
Key words Excessive and Exorbitant
I need ammo when a bad guy breaks my door down in an emergency and I need essential ammo to defend my life.
Unfortunately the unethical gougers stripped the ammo off the shelf and are selling it online for an unreasonable amount.
Now somebody do this one: Profiteer:a person who makes excessive profits, especially by charging exorbitant prices for goods in short supply
Key words Excessive and Exorbitant
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