A little Ammo Justice!

[Agsalaska]

Words games, neat. OK, I'll try.

I need ammo when a bad guy breaks my door down in an emergency and I need essential ammo to defend my life.
Unfortunately the unethical gougers stripped the ammo off the shelf and are selling it online for an unreasonable amount.

Now somebody do this one: Profiteer:a person who makes excessive profits, especially by charging exorbitant prices for goods in short supply
Key words Excessive and Exorbitant

That was not any more of a word game than the one you played in your original post. He challenged your logic. And he is right. Your definition cannot apply to the current situation.

Regarding the rest of your post, you try to link ammunition to an essential need opposed to a luxury item. Just because you can find a circumstance where that commodity becomes a need, or even essential for the situation you are in, does not make that item an economic essential. If so, the same logic could be applied to Fire Extinguishers, defibrillators, scuba gear, knives, weather radios, tricycles, peanut butter, you name it. I can make just about anything an essential need if you give me the right circumstance. But the fact that there is less than .01% chance that need ever finds you means it is not an essential commodity.

 

[Jlr2267]

Words games, neat. OK, I'll try.

I need ammo when a bad guy breaks my door down in an emergency and I need essential ammo to defend my life.
Unfortunately the unethical gougers stripped the ammo off the shelf and are selling it online for an unreasonable amount.

Now somebody do this one: Profiteer:a person who makes excessive profits, especially by charging exorbitant prices for goods in short supply
Key words Excessive and Exorbitant

If you honestly needed it to defend your life the current prices would not be unreasonable. The reason you do not buy at current price is precisely because you don't need it bad enough.

 

[Impureclient]

I can make just about anything an essential need if you give me the right circumstance.

Do a boomerang and a empty shoebox.

 

[Impureclient]

If you honestly needed it to defend your life the current prices would not be unreasonable.

Not everybody has a computer to go online and buy overpriced ammo. I have plenty of customers who don't use a computer. Too bad for them, right?
For the record, I have thousands of rounds in all the calibers of firearms I have. I am just arguing for the fellas/ladies who didn't have cash to be prepared and are getting tired of being hosed.

 

[Agsalaska]

Do a boomerang and a empty shoebox.

Let me pass that on to my daughter and I will get back to you. Do you care to address the rest of my post?

 

[TimboKhan]

I am tempted lock this up as this is turning into a circular argument. Ultimately, your own particular set of morals and values provides the right (or, mostly right) answer. I, for one, have no issue with people buying as much ammo as they can. People hoarding ammo when there is ammo to be hoarded has never been a big issue, and in fact is often an almost celebrated achievment. When the supply runs short, all of a sudden it becomes this huge negative issue.

I don't condone people calling for bad things to happen to people flipping ammo, but if you find it distasteful it's a pretty simple thing to not be a part of. I do find it distasteful to compare a consumer product to a necessity of life. Charging triple for water in a town that just got literally destroyed is despicable. Charging a willing customer more for ammo on the open market is a much different thing, and I don't care how websters defines it.

 

[Sentryau2]

What the hordes are doing is unreasonable. I mean its pretty weak to buy ammo for the sake of reselling it. Id rather it be some guy and his kids buying up most of the ammo to shoot, instead of some buying it all and selling it online for an outrageous price. I have 30 rounds of 5.56 ammo because thats all I've been able to find. Its not even the same brand its mixed ammo I managed to buy from friends who could spare it. There was a guy here buying generators a few years ago during an ice storm 1K $ generators hed sell them for 5K $ because people needed them, but the little old lady living down the street couldent afford that so he thought she could freeze to death because it was her problem. Its not the same situation and ammo is not a necessity but its the same principal. Price gouging and hoarding for resale is a disgusting thing to do. I have 50 rounds of .22lr because the shop only had 2 boxes of 50 instead of buying both I only bought one. I'll give you a better example that relates to ammo. Say you enter a public restroom and use number 2 but theres only a little bit of toilet paper left. Instead of useing all of it (like you could) you only use half of it. Someone goes in after you who has a stomach bug and gets the runs, they are going to bless you like you're the forth coming of christ. Now a second outcome, say you didnt leave that bit of tissue left over, and u end up with diarrhea you screwed urself over, and a third outcome. You end up with diarrhea but you did leave that tissue left. You saved yourself a problem. Toilet tissue is no a life necessity either

 

[Jlr2267]

Not everybody has a computer to go online and buy overpriced ammo. I have plenty of customers who don't use a computer. Too bad for them, right?
For the record, I have thousands of rounds in all the calibers of firearms I have. I am just arguing for the fellas/ladies who didn't have cash to be prepared and are getting tired of being hosed.

Sell them your ammo at Walmart price. I'm sure they'd appreciate that more than your efforts in arguing online (which they can't even see without a computer )

 

[Agsalaska]

I am tempted lock this up as this is turning into a circular argument. Ultimately, your own particular set of morals and values provides the right (or, mostly right) answer. I, for one, have no issue with people buying as much ammo as they can. People hoarding ammo when there is ammo to be hoarded has never been a big issue, and in fact is often an almost celebrated achievment. When the supply runs short, all of a sudden it becomes this huge negative issue.

I don't condone people calling for bad things to happen to people flipping ammo, but if you find it distasteful it's a pretty simple thing to not be a part of. I do find it distasteful to compare a consumer product to a necessity of life. Charging triple for water in a town that just got literally destroyed is despicable. Charging a willing customer more for ammo on the open market is a much different thing, and I don't care how websters defines it.

I understand. And I wouldn't blame you one bit if you locked this thread. I just find it frustrating that so many people, who vote republican I might add, either have a total misunderstanding or distaste for capitalist principles. I think some of the comparisons and questions are fair and some are obviously over the line. But the reason they go over the line is a lack of understanding of what our economy, their economy, is based. Comparing water after a tornado to the current ammo is ludicrous, but explaining the difference in an educational way is beneficial. That is assuming it is civil. I can only hope that somebody who has read this thread and a couple of others like it have gained some kind of understanding beyond their previous assumptions.

 

[Impureclient]

Sell them your ammo at Walmart price.

Even better, I've already given some away and not sold it.

Also to add. Right before the ammo became scarce and it was available, I still didn't buy out whole cases that I found although I could. I left some behind for others.

I see this whole thing black and white. There are two kinds of people who buy ammo. My kind and the other kind. My kind also help elderly people across the streets and gives handouts to homeless.
I'm doing it because I am not greedy and am not just out for number one. Some people are nice and some people are mean.

 

[Agsalaska]

What the hordes are doing is unreasonable. I mean its pretty weak to buy ammo for the sake of reselling it. Id rather it be some guy and his kids buying up most of the ammo to shoot, instead of some buying it all and selling it online for an outrageous price. I have 30 rounds of 5.56 ammo because thats all I've been able to find. Its not even the same brand its mixed ammo I managed to buy from friends who could spare it. There was a guy here buying generators a few years ago during an ice storm 1K $ generators hed sell them for 5K $ because people needed them, but the little old lady living down the street couldent afford that so he thought she could freeze to death because it was her problem. Its not the same situation and ammo is not a necessity but its the same principal. Price gouging and hoarding for resale is a disgusting thing to do. I have 50 rounds of .22lr because the shop only had 2 boxes of 50 instead of buying both I only bought one. I'll give you a better example that relates to ammo. Say you enter a public restroom and use number 2 but theres only a little bit of toilet paper left. Instead of useing all of it (like you could) you only use half of it. Someone goes in after you who has a stomach bug and gets the runs, they are going to bless you like you're the forth coming of christ. Now a second outcome, say you didnt leave that bit of tissue left over, and u end up with diarrhea you screwed urself over, and a third outcome. You end up with diarrhea but you did leave that tissue left. You saved yourself a problem. Toilet tissue is no a life necessity either

I highly suggest you watch the video posted earlier. Below is a link. It is not the best or most complete explanation I have heard but it does a pretty good job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9QEkw6_O6w

 

[Jlr2267]

What the hordes are doing is unreasonable. I mean its pretty weak to buy ammo for the sake of reselling it.

isn't that what every ammo retailer on the planet does?

Id rather it be some guy and his kids buying up most of the ammo to shoot, instead of some buying it all and selling it online for an outrageous price.

So you'd rather have no ammo available than expensive ammo available?

 

[Agsalaska]

I think the biggest problem that people cannot get their heads around is the demand curve had shifted rapidly and dramatically. It has done so while outpacing supply. That will inherently cause an increase in price. THat can come in a couple of ways. You can either have consitent prices across the board or you can have wild variations in price. Either way it brings you back to an Average Sale that is consistent with demand. And people do not want to see an increase in price. But, until supply can catch up(which is no guarantee), the increase is reality. And that is not a bad thing.

 

[rugerdude]

Unfortunately we are arguing a moral dilemma against basic, reasonable economic behavior. Some say it's wrong regardless of how the economy is supposed to work, others say that it is right because high demand produces somewhat less obvious benefits. We can logically REASON that the high demand with high prices MAINTAINS a supply, and any supply is better than no supply no matter which side of the debate you're on. Whether it is a time sacrifice waiting for Academy to open its doors, or a monetary cost because you cannot or will not wait in line, or buy from the internet. We all have different schedules and budgets but the economy does not have to be and is not fair. If your counter is that this "profiteering" makes it unable for lower income people to get ammo then you're right, those that can comfortably spend more, will. However ammo is a luxury item, and some luxury items can only be had by "rich" people (we all have a different definition of wealthy).

The two ideas presented fundamentally disagree with one another. Your FEELINGS about these practices have nothing to do with it, it is an economy at work. Also ammo and water are completely different commodities. Maybe we can all agree that we'd rather have cheaper ammo everywhere, but that is beyond the scope of reality with the current demand, BECAUSE of the current demand. You feelings only make things right for you, from your own perspective. We cannot argue one standard for morality.

If you want reasonably priced ammo, don't buy ammo, and convince others not to buy it (unreasonable, I know). Demand will decrease and supply will catch up. It has become all about pulling one over on the "other guy" both from the moral perspective and the economically sensible one. We all want to benefit, even the guy that gives everything away does so because his moral desire to help others has become WORTH MORE to him than his ammo. We are a desire driven species and NO decision is made without a desire to do so. You may be forced to choose between two terrible choices and have no other options, but you will still choose the BEST for YOU, even if is is only better within the confines of your conscience. Do not mistake DECISION with a coerced action, they are not the same. You people both want ammo to go to those that don't have it. The "profiteers" are doing that, and the ammo is only sold when a price is mutually AGREED upon. Just because it is not as beneficial of a transaction as you would LIKE it to be DOES NOT mean it wasn't a mutually beneficial transaction.

If your goal is to be congratulated for being morally superior to the other guys flipping ammo, then cool, I would tend to agree that you are. I hope there were smiles all around.

However, you bought the ammo first and had a personally moral victory, but you don't know the other people's situation as much as you might like to assume that you do. Whose to say they aren't donating the profits to charity or caring for their elderly parents? There's no reason to turn this issue into an "us versus them." Take time out of shooting, it is a LUXURY, maybe in doing so you could pick up a hobby that you never knew you loved. If you needed ammo for training or protection then you should A. Have some, or B. Be provided it by the institution that employs to to maintain a firearms proficiency. Or heck even, C gotten a better job and made more money so that you could afford the ammo. There are people on other continents in FAR more danger than any of us, but nobody here is donating their guns and ammo to them, or making a legal initiative to do so and legalizing such exportation first.


Too long; Didn't read: People like it when things go their way, and do not like it when things don't.

 

[JVaughn]

It's amazing how polarizing this issue can be.

 

[oneounceload]

It is only polarizing to those who:

Do not understand basic supply/demand economics
Do not have the financial means to support their shooting habit at the current pricing
Did not prepare/foresee this coming after the first election cycle

 

[pockets]

Okay....I have waded through these 4 pages of circle fun......now my head hurts.
'A little justice' would be getting back all of the time I spent reading it.
I could have (probably should have) gone shooting instead.
.

 

[Sam1911]

Rugerdude has perfectly explained the concepts at work. And his summation is just wonderfully apt.

 

[HoosierQ]

The problem we face right now is, as I have noted before, you have to behave like this just to get ammo to shoot your normal pattern. I know a guy who's a scout leader...came to the NRA Banquet in his Boy Scout uniform 'cause he didn't have time to change! He had to drive from Indiana to Pennsylvania to get .22lr for his scout troops merit badge/gun safety program...whatever it was.

Two kinds of "hoarding"...3 I guess. Obsessive hoarders, profiteers, and those who feel compelled to buy a couple thousand rounds when they can because they don't know the next time they'll even see a box of 50!

 

[45_auto]

Alright, I just have to know:

Two kinds of "hoarding"...3 I guess. Obsessive hoarders, profiteers, .....

How do you make a profit by "hoarding" ammo?

Definition of HOARD
: a supply or fund stored up and often hidden away

Wouldn't you need to SELL it to make a profit? Kind of the exact opposite of hoarding, isn't it? If you wanted to store it up, why would you try to sell it? And if you were trying to keep it hidden away, why would you advertise it for sale?

I'll admit, I have a pretty extensive hoard of ammo. How do I make a profit on it while still being a hoarder?

 

[Bruno2]

The issue will sort itself out. It always has in the past when dealers/private citizens hoard up all the assault rifles in order to re sale them for big money. Eventually they will get stuck with them and we will see prices fall like a rock. There will be good deals to find here in a couple of months whenever the ammo supply recovers.

 

[anothernewb]

In the words of George Takei.. "Oh My"

I had no idea I would start this kind of debate. Some of these posts actually had me go back and re-examine what I can remember of my motives. In truth - it had far less to do with ammo flippers, and more to do with this individual personally. The comment about buying it online from him really burned me.

The karma will likely bite me like it always does though..

 

[Agsalaska]

Rugerdude and post88!!!

 

[Sam1911]

Rugerdude and post88!!!

Funny what they're teaching Recon Marines these days, isn't it?

 

[LNK]

Okay, I shouldn't really be proud of myself for this but here's the story:

Actually you should be proud of yourself, you found a way to be more creative than others trying to get the unobtainium. I check my Walmart whenever I can, but have not had much luck. Did get some 22 from BPS. As far as people complaining about gouging, and capitalism, just remember, Walmart is not raising its prices even though it probably should. Also, learn from this particular time, and don't let it happen to you again. People can only gouge you if you let them. People can only make a profit off of something if someone lets them. This whole thing will self correct eventually.

LNK