A Motion - re: The Term "Assault Rifle"
- Thread starter HoosierQ
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JustinJ
Member
What? Which crimes? Are you talking about crimes related to illegal gun sales or crimes in general?
Why are you worried about states with more restrictions due to other states with fewer restrictions?
JustinJ
Member
Um, i'm not "so worried" about states with restrictions. What i said is that high crime rates in states with heavy gun control is not indicative of the potential effectiveness of other forms of gun control in reducing crime. The fact that adjacent states with laws that make straw purchases easier to perform than in states with tighter restrictions is a factor in this. This is just one example of why it is so hard to identify the relationship between gun laws and crime rates.
And yet, the majority of firearms that were recovered at a crime scene and traced to the original point of sale were originally sold in the state where the crime was committed...
Also, correct me if I am wrong...but it appears that even if a gun is legally transferred between states before being recovered from a crime scene it still gets reported in this report...if that is not the case can you show where the report says otherwise?
Also, correct me if I am wrong...but it appears that even if a gun is legally transferred between states before being recovered from a crime scene it still gets reported in this report...if that is not the case can you show where the report says otherwise?
JustinJ
Member
Are you talking about when all states are considered?
Here's another fact. In 2011 Massachusetts recovered 1,737 guns used in crime. Of those traces were completed for 1,020. Only 351 of those originated in Massachusetts.
Of the 9,000 recovered guns used in crimes in New York only 1,595 were shown to originate within the state last year.
The page had actually quite a few different reports in it. Part III discusses a strong indicator that was considered, Time-To-Crime(TTC,) of a gun being illegal trafficked against those which were brought in legally.
__________________
It's directly from your link.
"Traced Guns Purchased and Recovered in the Same State = 70%"
Bottom of page four in a nice little box.
And not only were 70% of the traced guns originally sold in the states where the crime was committed...but an unknown percentage of the remaining 30% could have been legally transferred to that state. The trace that goes from the manufacturer to the distributor to the FFL that first sold the gun to an individual doesn't know if that individual later transferred the gun out of state, legally.
Even if you ignore those unknowns the fact remains that this very source states that 70% of the traced firearms originated in the state where the crime was committed. Given these facts it hardly seems that states with violent crime problems can blame the rest of the country, but rather need to look in the mirror first and foremost.
M-Forgery
Member
How about just plain ole rifle?
That isn't always descriptive enough.
Example: For about 6 years I had a Ruger 10/22. And a Remington Nylon 66. And a couple of Mosin Nagants. I wanted a ____, though. As in, I wanted something that was centerfire, fed by a removable magazine, and was very easy to mount optics, slings, and weapon lights to. When I would tell somebody that I didn't have one of those things...what would I call it? If I just said I didn't have a rifle yet, they would say "uh, yes, you have like 4 rifles". And they would be right.
However, in the interest of brevity, I don't want to explicitly spell out those requirements. So, in the course of conversation (often with my wife or another family member, such as my parents, a sibling, whatever) I would use a term that specified the type of rifle I was referring to. This required a term other than "rifle". I usually said "Assault Rifle" with a tone inflection indicating that I didn't really think that was the right word, or used little air quotes when I said it. Do you have a proposition for a better term for that type of situation? "Rifle" isn't descriptive enough, and "Assault Rifle" is incorrect. What should I call it? I couldn't really even say EBR because for awhile I thought it would be a wood stocked M1A, thus it wouldn't even really be an EBR as it wouldn't be B
beatledog7
Member
I still think we should adopt a term such as Operator Configurable Rifle or Modular Self-loading Rifle. These terms are innocuous and descriptive.
I understand the position of those who want to say these are assault rifles by design and to call them something else is disingenuous. I also understand the position of those who say calling them something that sounds more innocent is kowtowing to the antis.
I disagree with both positions. When we insist on calling AR/AK-style rifles "assault rifles" or the often used "Battle Rifle" or "Main Battle Rifle," we must recognize that antis will use that to vilify us and to justify their campaign to ban such firearms. They will feel compelled to ask, "Whom are you planning to assault or engage in battle?" And we will try to explain, but once the question is asked, we can't make an argument that successfully negates it in their eyes.
Of course they're wrong, but when did being wrong ever stop them from being influential? Remember, the most-viewed media also tend to take anti-gun positions.
We know the term inflames the debate. We know it gives antis an excuse to say wrongly that gun owners are itching to shoot people. Given those observable facts, how is continuing to use it a good idea?
I understand the position of those who want to say these are assault rifles by design and to call them something else is disingenuous. I also understand the position of those who say calling them something that sounds more innocent is kowtowing to the antis.
I disagree with both positions. When we insist on calling AR/AK-style rifles "assault rifles" or the often used "Battle Rifle" or "Main Battle Rifle," we must recognize that antis will use that to vilify us and to justify their campaign to ban such firearms. They will feel compelled to ask, "Whom are you planning to assault or engage in battle?" And we will try to explain, but once the question is asked, we can't make an argument that successfully negates it in their eyes.
Of course they're wrong, but when did being wrong ever stop them from being influential? Remember, the most-viewed media also tend to take anti-gun positions.
We know the term inflames the debate. We know it gives antis an excuse to say wrongly that gun owners are itching to shoot people. Given those observable facts, how is continuing to use it a good idea?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Why not just refer to them by their proper name. AR15...M1...M14/M1A?
ol' scratch
Member
THIS^^^
beatledog7
Member
I agree we could call them exactly what they are, by model designation. This whole debate stems from the errant assertion that they have to categorized and that the resulting category has to have a name.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
A couple of years ago I was shopping for a rifle for my son-in-law.
What I wound up buying was a Belgian BAR.
The way I described that rifle over the phone to a number of LGS outfits was something like, "I'm looking for a rifle in the .30 cal range, mag fed, self loader, suitable for medium-to-large game."
And we began with "mag fed self loader" as a primary characteristic.
It turns out that there are any number of mag-fed rifles that aren't self loaders. (It also turns out that "mag fed" describes tube-mag lever guns.) And not all mags are "detachable box mags" as I discovered when offered the 1941 Johnson (.30-06) as a choice.
We didn't try to use fancy or cute "shortcut" names. I was looking for something specific.
It would be patently silly for me to walk into ye gunne shoppe and say "I'm shopping for 'an assault rifle', whatcha got?" It doesn't describe anything in any meaningful way. After the laughter subsided, they'd say "well, we don't have any, and nobody else does either, so what are you lookin' to do with it?"
And we would start from there.
And we'd figure out whether I was planning to hunt varmints, defend my home, harvest deer, or refine my marksmanship. And then we'd talk build quality and price ranges.
There's a real wealth of variety in rifles, and a broad spectrum of applications. But unless you work for the government or hold a special license, "assault rifle" is not among your available options.
What I wound up buying was a Belgian BAR.
The way I described that rifle over the phone to a number of LGS outfits was something like, "I'm looking for a rifle in the .30 cal range, mag fed, self loader, suitable for medium-to-large game."
And we began with "mag fed self loader" as a primary characteristic.
It turns out that there are any number of mag-fed rifles that aren't self loaders. (It also turns out that "mag fed" describes tube-mag lever guns.) And not all mags are "detachable box mags" as I discovered when offered the 1941 Johnson (.30-06) as a choice.
We didn't try to use fancy or cute "shortcut" names. I was looking for something specific.
It would be patently silly for me to walk into ye gunne shoppe and say "I'm shopping for 'an assault rifle', whatcha got?" It doesn't describe anything in any meaningful way. After the laughter subsided, they'd say "well, we don't have any, and nobody else does either, so what are you lookin' to do with it?"
And we would start from there.
And we'd figure out whether I was planning to hunt varmints, defend my home, harvest deer, or refine my marksmanship. And then we'd talk build quality and price ranges.
There's a real wealth of variety in rifles, and a broad spectrum of applications. But unless you work for the government or hold a special license, "assault rifle" is not among your available options.
See post #184.
Another analogy, which has been used before, is SUV. We often use the term SUV instead of "car" because we wish to be more descriptive and specific BUT we don't necessarily have a specific model or even manufacturer. For example, we are sure that when we sell or trade my wife's Explorer we will replace it with an SUV. I say SUV because that is more descriptive than "car" but I don't say "Chevy Tahoe" because we do not yet know what model, or even manufacturer, it will be.
The same can be true of an 'assault rifle'. I had the goal of buying an 'assault rifle' this year. Not just any rifle, so I couldn't say 'rifle' because that wouldn't be descriptive enough. I couldn't say AR15, or M1, or M1A, because I wasn't sure which one it would be. Although, curious that you said M1, it doesn't seem to fit the description of "assault rifle" as it is commonly used.
TrueTexan
Member
Ask the men of Normandy if the M1 was an assault rifle.
As a new member I have really enjoyed this thread. Some of my observations and thoughts. Gun control is not the answer as we know, it will not reduce crime. Other factors may reduce crime but not to be covered in a gun forum.
What name to use semi-automatic rifle is my choice. If we use names like AR15 AK47 etc then there is a prejudice in the media as seen with the theatre shooting the barely mention that he used an AR15 and shotgun had he used an AK47 it would have been blown all out of proportion.
My thoughts happy to have joined after lurking for awhile.
Like I said, the M1 Garand "doesn't seem to fit the description of "assault rifle" as it is commonly used."
sig228
Member
Lets Call a Spade a Spade
I revert back to the OP's original question. Lets call it what it is, an assault rifle. Half this country are gun owners. Half of those probably own an assault rifle of some sort. In my opinion, a significant number of gun owners don't even know the terminology difference between a clip and a magazine. Now you want to start introducing terms like "utility rifle" "modern sporting rifle" "general purpose rifle" etc. These poor folks who don't know clip vs magazine are going to be thoroughly confused.
Lets call a spade a spade.
Assault rifle.
Anything else implies that we have something to hide. We don't.
Say it loud, say it proud:
ASSAULT RIFLE
I revert back to the OP's original question. Lets call it what it is, an assault rifle. Half this country are gun owners. Half of those probably own an assault rifle of some sort. In my opinion, a significant number of gun owners don't even know the terminology difference between a clip and a magazine. Now you want to start introducing terms like "utility rifle" "modern sporting rifle" "general purpose rifle" etc. These poor folks who don't know clip vs magazine are going to be thoroughly confused.
Lets call a spade a spade.
Assault rifle.
Anything else implies that we have something to hide. We don't.
Say it loud, say it proud:
ASSAULT RIFLE
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
One more time: NO THEY DON'T.
There are probably less than 100,000 registered Assault Rifles in this country.
This has nothing at all to do with not being loud or proud. It has to do with the LITERAL DEFINITION of an "Assault Rifle." And a semi-auto rifle simply CANNOT be one!
Period. I know you're trying to stand up for gun owners, but using the wrong words, no matter how well-intentioned, isn't the way to do that.
sig228
Member
Read my post. I'm not talking about machine guns. I'm talking about calling our Ak's and AR's assault weapons. There are certainly more than 100,000 of those in the US.
BTW, I would love for you or anyone else to show me the "literal definition" of an assault weapon. Dont bother with Websters, they claim semi auto are assault weapons also.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Oh boy...
No, you said "Assault Rifle" and you said it four times. You said it once in red. You said it once in about size five large print.
And no, semi-auto AR-15s and AK clones are not assault rifles.
Now, if you want to call them assault "weapons" -- well, that's your right, but considering who made up that term and why, I'm not going along with you and I don't think most knowledgeable shooters will either.
So, you're either telling us all to call them the WRONG name, as if we don't understand the difference, or call them by an ambiguous and poorly-defined denigration that was invented by the folks who want to take them away.
This is poorly thought out.
I think I've said it earlier in this post, but I will say that "assault weapon" is a correct term if you're using legal definitions instead of technicial definitions. I will agree with you that it's not a term that I'm going to use. I consider all of my weapons defense weapons, not assault, and if I am speaking from a legal perspective I will use the term "so-called assault weapon".
Now, if I had a select-fire carbine I wouldn't hesitate to call it an assault rifle
sig228
Member
Sam, I respect your opinion, but like I said, using these other terms seems (to me at least) that we are trying to hide something.
Assault weapons, in the hands of good, law abiding citizens, are nothing to be ashamed of.
Assault weapons, in the hands of good, law abiding citizens, are nothing to be ashamed of.
In post #193 you refer to "assault rifle".
Then in #195 you refer to "assault weapons".
Assault Rifles are selective fire while Assault Weapons are simply semiauto versions of the selective fire assault rifle.
Which is it? Assault Rifle or Assault Weapon?
Then in #195 you refer to "assault weapons".
Assault Rifles are selective fire while Assault Weapons are simply semiauto versions of the selective fire assault rifle.
Which is it? Assault Rifle or Assault Weapon?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
We don't have to be ashamed of anything. But we also don't have to dumb ourselves down to using the terms of the ignorant or the enemy just to prove we're not cowed.
I will proudly own an AKM, AR-15, or any number of other semi-auto rifles. I'll very proudly own as many Assault Rifles as I can ever afford.
But I'm not going to call my guns "assault wepons" because I'd feel like an uneducated, mouth-breathing idiot doing so. (I'll also not go around calling my pistol's "Fo-tays" or "Gats" either.)
I will proudly own an AKM, AR-15, or any number of other semi-auto rifles. I'll very proudly own as many Assault Rifles as I can ever afford.
But I'm not going to call my guns "assault wepons" because I'd feel like an uneducated, mouth-breathing idiot doing so. (I'll also not go around calling my pistol's "Fo-tays" or "Gats" either.)
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