Has this happened to you

[Utah1]

Questions for the LEO's reading this:

After reading Deanimator's post on what happened in VA. What will happen to the officers involved here? What if he just files a complaint? What if he sues? - and I'd guess the county would just settle with him. What happens - how will things change for the next one thats stopped in a similar setting?

I get the feeling that nothing will change, even if there's a big payout.

 

[rmmoore]

Hey Deanimator, growing up in south Alabama, and now calling Wyoming home, I was raised, and have spent most of my adult, life referring to men and women as sir and ma'am. It's a sign of courtesy, manners, and common decency. If you are opposed to such a practice, that's up to you. But then don't whine and bitch when the officer DOES give you a ticket, with some of that "option" (yes, in most cases they have a CHOICE) because you're being a pompous ass. Being polite and courteous have helped me avoid a number of speeding tickets that I earned and well deserved. Was I kissing the officer's rear end? No, I didn't, nor was I trying to.

Addressing another person as sir or ma'am is a cultural issue in many parts of the country. Perhaps in your particular part of the Country politeness and courtesy are outdated and ancient. Well, in MY part of the Country, they're NOT. I like it, and PREFER it that way.

The officer that gave the originator of this thread a hard time doesn't deserve that respect, but only AFTER he showed his "colors". Perhaps loosing respect for other people in general is part of what is wrong with our society today.

Maybe you should look in the mirror a little more often, unless of course you're one of those folks that look in every one that you pass by, thinking how great and deserving you are of the world's respect.

Maybe revisiting the Golden Rule would be a good learning moment here: "Treat others as YOU would like to be treated". And no, I don't like people kissing my ass, but I do appreciate a little courtesy until I do something NOT to deserve it. Lighten up and get over yourself, you'll live longer.

 

[Lincoln7]

Deanimator, I am having trouble finding info whether or not you must inform, which would leave me to believe you are correct. Do you have any links that state that I'm not required to inform? Thanks.

 

[Deanimator]

And see, to me that sounds more like a caste system than just calling everyone "sir" or "ma'am" no matter what. You're tying it to a percieved value. I'm not.

Actually, it's the OPPOSITE of a caste system. It's purely functional, without reference to whether what you DO is better than what somebody else does.

"Sir" STRONGLY implies an INFERIOR status for the person who uses it, even if it's only a customer - service provider relationship.

Enlisted men called me "sir" every day. I NEVER called an enlisted man "sir", nor was that considered appropriate. It's a term of DEFERENCE. I don't render deference to LEOs merely because they're cops. I render deference to the LAW. Some people don't understand that. Some explicitly don't LIKE it. I've repeatedly seen people insist that I show deference to LEOs to the point of abdicating my legal rights to refuse consent to searches or to remain silent. Makes no difference to me. I long ago was disabused of the illusion that people who tell me things, always do so with my best interests (or right and wrong) at heart.

 

[Deanimator]

Deanimator, I am having trouble finding info whether or not you must inform, which would leave me to believe you are correct. Do you have any links that state that I'm not required to inform? Thanks.

Try Virginia Citizens Defense League.

 

[Deanimator]

But then don't whine and bitch when the officer DOES give you a ticket

The BEST way not to get a ticket is to obey the traffic laws.
The BEST way not to get shot by the police is not to fight with them.

Neither of these things is 100%, but they USUALLY work out where the people keep the police on a short leash.

But then I'm not one of those people who thinks he's special and is ENTITLED to break the law so long as he renders the "appropriate courtesies" to the police. The guy who drives drunk and calls the cop who pulls him over "sir" isn't LESS deserving of arrest than the guy who drives drunk and calls that same cop "officer".

Not only do I not WANT "breaks" from the police, I don't want to DO things that make them necessary. Some consider that highly eccentric.

I'm from Chicago though, and I fully realize that there are just some people who don't feel "right" if they don't think they're getting away with something...

 

[LibShooter]

I guess it is a cultural thing, but I call almost every adult I don't know "sir" or "ma'am" no matter how old they are. Those of us from the South know that it's not what you say but how you say it. We can put more scorn in a properly spoken "Yes Sir" than the average Yankee can cram into a string of profanity.

BTW, Police officers have a right to their opinions. It's no skin off my nose if he choses to share it at a traffic stop.

 

[Floppy_D]

Whatever you call THEM, you shouldn't call them "Americans".

 

[sheepdog]

+1, Libshooter....and I'm 60...what follows the "Sir" or "Ma'am" depends on them...

...I've argued with cops a lot of times...even chastised them for something...but you can do that respectfully and still not make an enemy...

 

[Deanimator]

Questions for the LEO's reading this:

After reading Deanimator's post on what happened in VA. What will happen to the officers involved here? What if he just files a complaint? What if he sues? - and I'd guess the county would just settle with him. What happens - how will things change for the next one thats stopped in a similar setting?

I get the feeling that nothing will change, even if there's a big payout.

1. To the best of my knowledge the victim did file a formal complaint. I do not know the disposition of this complaint.

2. At last word, the victim declined to file suit. Nobody seems to know why, and there seems to be a considerable air of mystery regarding this. Many people who are aware of the incident are HIGHLY disappointed by the victim's decision. This is BAR NONE, the most egregious act of police misconduct involving a lawful gun owner which did not involve the victim's serious injury or death, of which I'm aware.

3. Given that ALL of the alleged non-traffic offenses were WHOLLY imaginary, the arrest was by definition, contrary to department policy. They were WHOLLY outside of the normal scope of the officers' duties. In addition, there was clear malice in both the refusal to validate the North Carolina credential and the attempt to unlawfully continue to retain the victim's firearm. I believe that a competent attorney could successfully demonstrate that the officers had pierced their own qualified immunity, making them PERSONALLY liable, in addition to the department's liability for its obvious failure to properly supervise and train the officers in question.

As far as the status of the complaint, I suggest you contact Phil van Cleve of the VCDL.

Needless to say, this case is a prime example of why many of us consent to nothing and volunteer no information not REQUIRED by LAW. Rendering to the police the sort of "courtesy" being discussed here, resulted in an innocent person having his rights violated six ways to Sunday, and with no apparent compensation or consequences for the perpetrators.

 

[Deanimator]

BTW, Police officers have a right to their opinions. It's no skin off my nose if he choses to share it at a traffic stop.

I'm absolutely uninterested in his opinions. I'm ESPECIALLY uninterested in his opinions rendered at literal or figurative gun point.

Would it be appropriate for an LEO to detain you and inflict his views on healthcare or cap and trade on you? How about to proselytize for the Church of Scientology?

He's entitled to his opinions. He also entitled to keep them to himself when there's a captive audience, forbidden by law to demur.

 

[LibShooter]

I'm absolutely uninterested in his opinions. I'm ESPECIALLY uninterested in his opinions rendered at literal or figurative gun point.

Your interest in his opinion has absolutely no bearing on his right to express it. I didn't see anything in the original post about anyone being detained at literal or figurative gunpoint. That would be illegal.

 

[CosmicGrooves]

Do you have to give the cop your CHL with your license when you get pulled over?

 

[Deanimator]

Your interest in his opinion has absolutely no bearing on his right to express it.

Am I being detained, such that I cannot escape it?

I have a right to express myself. I don't have the right to express myself in your home, contrary to your wishes, nor do I have the right to restrain you in order to express them.

"Am I free to leave? No? I have nothing further to say without my attorney present."

I'm not interested in his opinions in ANY way. If he unlawfully detains me to FORCE them upon me, I guarantee he's going to wish he hadn't.

 

[sheepdog]

After slogging through...

...three pages of attempted good manners training, Southern style, which was a wasted effort...you either got 'em or you don't...I'm going to go back and answer the OP's question...Yes, Sir, I have had this happen to me...I was about a block from the house one evening in my pickup...just got off work and tired...and heard a "Woop woop" behind me..pulled over and a young officer (20s)got out and approached...I opened my driver's door and put my feet on the ground, keeping my hands on the door...(we don't get out here in Texas)and smiled at him, and said "Sir, what'd you stop me for?" He smiled back and said "Well, back there at the stop sign, you didn't use a turn signal and two of your three brake lights are out...and two of three must be burning...could I see your license and insurance, please?(he gets the registration on his computer when he runs the tag) I handed him my CCW permit and Dr. Lic (required in TX before 5 sharp posters jump on me about it) and reach up for my ins.on the visor..."Oh, you carry? Where is it?"(...now at this point I'm going to inject my old training officer attitude and tell you that his rookie was sitting on his lazy butt in the squad car the whole time...never even got out...) I, wearing a heavy Tshirt out over my jeans, slapped my belly and said "Right here"...at which point he said "Oh, OK...don't go for it..." I looked at him and it hit him and me at the same millisecond and we laughed till he was hanging off my door and I was almost on the ground...and his rookie was sitting there with a very perplexed look on his face...when we could stop, I told him I had bulbs at the house and would change them when I got home and he said fine...we shook hands and parted...still laughing...never told him I'd been a training officer or fussed at him for laughing...or for his rookie's not covering him...he was "just folks" and it was "nuttin' but good."

 

[Deanimator]

Do you have to give the cop your CHL with your license when you get pulled over?

That's ENTIRELY a state matter.

In Ohio, you do.

In Virginia, you don't.

Based on the experiences of others, especially the victim of the Fairfax County PD, I would NEVER notify where it's not REQUIRED by LAW.

And to give a further example of the perniciousness of the "courtesies" nonsense, Oho requires notification ONLY if carrying. Of course there are NOW those who insist that you notify when NOT carrying, which is NOT required.

"Courtesies" ALWAYS get out of hand.

 

[Mags]

Enlisted men called me "sir" every day. I NEVER called an enlisted man "sir", nor was that considered appropriate. It's a term of DEFERENCE

Right there explains it all the fella was just used to us "peon" Enlisted grunts kissing his ass all the time. I often tell my subordinates there are two kinds of respect personal respect the kind you have for someone on the level of a human and the "have to" respect which is probably what somone like yourself who demands it and gives very little back recieves. I much rather my subordinates call me SSgt than sir when they mutter ******* afterwards.

 

[danbrew]

you know, if you don't want to call a cop "sir", you can always use the other southern-approved honorific for law enforcement officers.

"boss"

As in "yes, boss", "no, boss", "right away, boss", or "three more months 'till my parole, boss", or even "no, boss, i ain't on parole".

You know, whatever works for you.

 

[LibShooter]

Deanimator, a dude sharing his opinion in a few short sentences as he's handing back another dude's driver's license just doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. If you have a different opinion then the same amendment that gives him the right to express his opinion gives you the right to tell him you think he should shut up.

As for me, I plan to chose my battles a little more carefully.

 

[Deanimator]

I much rather my subordinates call me SSgt than sir when they mutter

I have no idea what branch of service you purport to be in, but in the US Army, it's inappropriate to refer to a noncommissioned officer as "sir". EVERY NCO I've EVER met objected to it, and most were offended by it.

 

[Mags]

Heck when I order at a drive thru sometimes I call the order taker boss. Like "let me get two of them soft tacos boss."

 

[Mags]

You are right on that Deanimator it just seems like a large majority of older gun owners, you think you are superior to others.

 

[wishin]

..............Enlisted men called me "sir" every day.................

By contrast, When I left the army as an officer after 10 years, I made it a point to call everyone "Sir" or 'Ma'am". I still do it 40 years later. Today, if I encounter an enlisted man that I don't know, I address him by rank, and respond to questions with "yes sir", "no sir". Young and old alike get this treatment within reason. After doing it for so long, it's automatic and without conscious thought most of the time. I must admit, it's harder for me to do when I'm stopped by a policeman, but even then I'll slip up. No harm, no foul.

BTW, my early years were spent in NJ. Good manners and civility shouldn't be a regional thing, but many times it is.

I don't know what this has to do with the price of tea in China.............

 

[sheepdog]

...I would have been respectful, listened, then told him the stories of cops' wives and mothers who had a gun and lived to tell about it...and asked him "How 'bout them???"...You can argue with a man, tell him he's wrong, refuse to do what he tells you to and that he has no legal right to demand it, and still not make an enemy of him...it's not that hard...kinda like posting on a forum...lose the attitude and address the facts of the situation...might even get your point across and win them over...showing an attitude just locks up his heart and mind and sets his jaw hard...and it's gonna cost you money or worse...life's too short...


...and one more comment ...I call EVERY Soldier, Fireman, and Cop in uniform "Sir"...any man who leaves his wife and family at home and goes out to protect mine WILL get my respect...

 

[Mags]

I really know it is off the thread's topic but I do see a majority of older gun owners have a "do what I want" attitude which does nothing but hurt the RKBA. Such as gun owners who refuse to be polite with LEOs to gun owners who do not care for a propertys owner's rights to refuse service, to those who walk around without a CCW permit saying "the 2nd amendment is my CCW permit". All these gun owners are doing is harming their grandchildren's future 2nd Amendment rights.