A reminder about online sales and the risk involved

[rust collector]

We live at a time when we can purchase things halfway around the world with the click of a button. We can also find a gun or accessory we have wanted for a long time on Craigslist, Gun Broker, or E-bay among many others, and often at a price that may seem reasonable. The trouble is that scamming is now easier than ever before, and the thieves are getting better at catching folks with every passing day.

You notice I didn't say sucker, because that implies that smart people don't have to worry. Nobody is immune, and card companies and auction administrators don't have all the staff, tools and time needed to recover funds sent to a scammer. Therefore, we need to use extreme caution if we must take this risk. As with protecting ourselves and family from violence, we can't rely on anyone else, and it is up to us to avoid being caught at a disadvantage.

If I am thinking of sending funds to someone selling their wares on the internet, here are some things that can reduce the risk.

• Know the subject matter or study up on it. Some things are easy to counterfeit, others can be cobbled up from cannibalized parts, dates can be tampered with and photos never show everything. Request a video or propose to have a local friend physically inspect.
• Do an image search for the images of the goods offered for sale. Often the scammer never has the property, but has grabbed images from other sites.
• Get contact information for seller, including physical address that I can check with Zillow or other resources; a phone number used to discuss the sale; and e-mail address that works. Get the seller's name, and run it by the FFL licensee they will use to send to me.
• Check known spammer ISPs and ask for references from other sales.
• If the seller refuses, disengages or become nonresponsive at any point before funds are sent, that tells me something is fishy.
• I will use a third party if I can, such as a local FFL that I designate, that I can send the funds to and pay to look out for my interests, including a valid ID and often, a mug shot.

I am sure I am missing some things, and I will encourage you to supplement this list. Remember that being a THR member is no guarantee that the seller is not a spammer. Losses were recently reported, and they will continue unless buyers use all the tools available to detect online thieves.

 

[Ks5shooter]

Never had any issues.that being said I always use a charge card ,never debit. Charge card companies will always guarantee your purchase for fraud. If not you need a new card. If a seller only wants zelle, Venmo etc it's a risk. Once you send it's gone. Private transactions are a different matter entirely,alot of risk comes into play.

 

[rust collector]

Good point, but two caveats. The first is that sellers are rarely set up to accept charge cards, and alternatives such as pay pal are strictly anti-gun. The second is that if the card covers a loss, that means we all get to pay to cover those expenses. I have read of cases in which the card company did not cover the loss, but of course they don't broadcast those events just as Disney World doesn't spend a lot of time warning us about the gators.

 

[stonebuster]

Only do FTF using Armslist. I contacted a seller who had primers at a very low price(1st red flag) and refused to meet me which was the second red flag. I looked on Gunbroker and found the same picture he had used for his attempted scam. I contacted the GB seller & reported it to Armslist as well as sending a picture of the GB ad to the scammer.

 

[lightman]

Lots of good suggestions above. Its sad that our Country has come to this.

 

[tarosean]

Its sad that our Country has come to this.

Its definately not just our country.. Scammers are everywhere on earth.

 

[kimberkid]

I prefer to setup at a local gun show, Kansas doesn’t require using an FFL to handle the transaction yet … first off, cash is king and if anything seems fishy or sketchy about the buyer I have dealer friends that will do a 4473 for me, and that’s usually when the fishy/sketchy individual backs out.

 

[welldoya]

If I am interested in an item that is not in my area, I ask the seller where he is located.
I then look on a map and pick out a town 15 or 20 miles away.
Then I tell the seller “You are kidding. My brother lives in xxx. I can have him come look at it for me.”
His reaction will tell me whether to proceed.
I once tried to buy a John Wayne Winchester from a guy who was supposedly in a town in an adjacent state 3 hours away. I told him I would come over there, transfer at an FFL and take it home with me. He kept throwing up road blocks, only wanted to ship so I backed off.
This rifle was at a very good price. It should have sold in a matter of hours but the ad was still
up weeks later. Tells me a lot.
People responding to WTB ads on gun forums is becoming very prevalent. The scammers are always new members and they have a friend who has what you are looking for.

 

[lightman]

Its definately not just our country.. Scammers are everywhere on earth.

That so true!

 

[Terry G]

It's generally not worth the risk if the savings amounts to a few dollars. If the price is very low, run!

 

[JohnKSa]

People responding to WTB ads on gun forums is becoming very prevalent. The scammers are always new members and they have a friend who has what you are looking for.

Everyone who is considering buying online (including from an ad on a forum) needs to read this and think about it.

If a third party contacts you via PM/email about a response to an ad you responded to, that is a HUGE red flag. By not placing the ad themselves, they are flying below the radar. It's harder for the folks administering the website to detect and monitor their activity.

There's a SCAM protection sticky at the top of each of the THR Trading Post subforums with good tips on how to detect and avoid being scammed.

 

[arsterling180]

Its definately not just our country.. Scammers are everywhere on earth.

You've got fraud laws in the Hammurabi code, and even bits and pieces related to fraud in some of the pre-Hammurabi law texts they've found over the years. Scamming and fraud is ancient cave man stuff.

 

[Will Munny]

Its definately not just our country.. Scammers are everywhere on earth.

Yes, but America is supposed to be better than that.
One often overlooked area for 2A advocacy concerns financial protections. We need a strong federal banking law that requires neutrality with respect to products. Pay Pal should not be able to deny its services for 2A activities.That would make online 2A dealing easier.

 

[Chief TC]

I am comfortable buying and selling on GI. I always talk to people first before any transaction and GI vets the seller. Not foolproof but it has some level of security to prevent scammers. I have purchased some small things on Gunbroker and ebay. I have used Zelle, CC and check/money order for transactions. Everything is a risk but put in some time to make sure everything is on the up and up. If I buy, I look for them to contact my FFL to transfer the firearm and my FFL does not just give out his info to anyone. If I go to a commercial website then I always use CC as you have protections. Any commercial retail site not offering CC is a scam.

 

[Master Blaster]

Over the last 10 years I have bought several guns from Gunbroker or online auction. I always used a credit card to pay and most of the sellers also had a bricks and mortar store.
I have also purchased from a family member selling a collection with few feedbacks. I have never had any issue except with a large dealer sending a damaged gun. They issued a refund as soon as the gun hit the fedex office and was scanned in. Use your common sense, buy from sellers with recent positive feedback. Use a credit card if they dont take it look elsewhere.

 

[hemiram]

I've bought and sold a fair number of guns online, mostly on GB. I took only USPS money orders for payment on sales. On buys, I've done USPS MO., CC's, and one by a plain old check. Never any problems with payments, or scams, etc. Only once did I buy a gun from a seller with little feedback, and it was a great gun at a great price. All the others came from sellers with 100 or more positives, a lot of them with thousands of positives. Some of the negative feedbacks people get are just plain insane. Giving a bad rating due to the USPS/UPS/Fedex banging up the thing is nuts. I've had a couple where the S&W cardboard box got messed up. I fixed both of them easily enough. Both of them were almost as old as I am anyway, and were pretty well dried out. Most of the time, the gun is as good or better than I expected it to be.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Something that is new that is handy is Chicken Dinner Arms, which is a known FFL on one of the other forums I'm on, they offer an escrow service to forum members. You send them the money, the seller sends them the gun, they inspect it and take pictures and send them to you, and only release the funds if you approve. The seller has the security of knowing the dealer has the money, and it's only like $65 total, which includes the reshipping.

There's a couple other escrow services for gun purchases I've seen as well.

 

[PzGren]

If I am interested in an item that is not in my area, I ask the seller where he is located.
I then look on a map and pick out a town 15 or 20 miles away.
Then I tell the seller “You are kidding. My brother lives in xxx. I can have him come look at it for me.”
His reaction will tell me whether to proceed.
....

That is where I as a seller am getting suspicious. I do not like people to stake out my place and figure out the security measures. I had bought and sold a lot of firearms in Indiana and Florida in FTF transactions and never allowed access to my home. I am mostly selling on GB and some of the questions that I am being asked are so ridiculous, that it is breathtaking!

 

[JDeere]

I quit buying firearms online awhile back unless absolutely necessary. My LGS can get what I want when it comes to new stock. He takes in trades and consignments daily. He post updates daily on what he gets in. So does the range/gun shop I frequent. I also get to put my hands on what I am looking at. Half the sellers on GB can't even post decent pics much less offer an inspection period. Even with an inspection period it's a hassle...

 

[JohnKSa]

That is where I as a seller am getting suspicious. I do not like people to stake out my place and figure out the security measures. I had bought and sold a lot of firearms in Indiana and Florida in FTF transactions and never allowed access to my home. I am mostly selling on GB and some of the questions that I am being asked are so ridiculous, that it is breathtaking!

It's your gun, it's their money. You don't have to do anything you don't want to and neither do they, but they're entitled to determine if you actually have the gun and are likely to fulfill your end of the bargain before they send you payment just as you're entitled to determine that their payment is good before you send the gun. How the two of you work that out is between you two, but you should understand that generally speaking the buyer usually takes more risk than the seller since they are usually required to take the first step and provide payment without actually even seeing the merchandise--without even really knowing for sure if it exists and/or the person receiving the payment will provide it.

We just had two THR members scammed here. The scammer set up an account at THR over a year ago and spent a considerable amount of time and effort making enough posts to build a reputation. It's likely that he was posting from a foreign country and it appears he had an accomplice in the U.S. to take payment. They both paid money and got nothing in return. This kind of thing happens and that's why potential buyers sometimes go to great lengths to try to verify, to the extent possible, that they will get something in return for their money.

I'm sorry you are getting asked ridiculous questions--but perhaps it's understandable why someone might try all kinds of ways to try to verify that they are going to get something for their money before they send it off to someone they've never actually seen in person. It may be irritating for you to answer their questions, but there's a bit more than irritation at stake for them.

 

[Rule3]

I have heard of "using and image search" but how do you go about doing that??

 

[stonebuster]

Lots of good suggestions above. Its sad that our Country has come to this.

Nothing new, even W.C. Fields said "never give a sucker an even break and never smarten up a chump." It is worse these days though.

 

[welldoya]

That is where I as a seller am getting suspicious. I do not like people to stake out my place and figure out the security measures. I had bought and sold a lot of firearms in Indiana and Florida in FTF transactions and never allowed access to my home. I am mostly selling on GB and some of the questions that I am being asked are so ridiculous, that it is breathtaking!

You would object to the buyer having someone look at the gun for him? If you were the buyer, would that send up a red flag?

 

[PzGren]

You would object to the buyer having someone look at the gun for him? If you were the buyer, would that send up a red flag?

I would indeed not have someone come to my home and look at something that he cannot legally buy. I have other and better means of diligently checking a seller out.

Complaining about vendors is just one side of the coin. There was a case on the HK forum where a very reputable dealer had collected payments for rare guns that he promised to buy and import and after a long time, some of the buyers, some of them out of close to $10,000 sent the Sheriff's office after him. He made good. The importer may not even have had bad intentions or did some foul play because ordering guns from H&K and getting the right batch made can take very long, getting import and export paperwork squared away can also take from a couple of months to over half a year.
Anyway, the pressure from the Sheriff's office convinced the dealer to work at full speed but until proven guilty in a court of law, in dubio pro reo should be considered for vendors and buyers - and I had plenty of NPB's on GB.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I don't understand why so many people keep falling for these things. It's like believing a Nigerian prince you left a million dollars. I rarely even buy stuff FTF via Marketplace, Craigslist, etc anymore. Too many people are showing up to FTF deals and getting robbed.

The $20 or so dollars I'm going to make selling my used junk just isn't worth the risk, and neither is $50 I'm going to save over buying something new.