A situation to consider...looking for input

[9mmepiphany]

You live in a single family home in a residential neighborhood. You live in a neighborhood with pretty high crime. The house almost directly across the street from yours had a home invasion involving armed bad guys about a year before. You see what you believe to be drug deals going down every few days within the few blocks around your house. There have been multiple gang and drug related murders in the housing project 5 blocks from your house since you moved in.

It is approximately 4:00 in the morning and you and your wife are asleep in your bedroom. You are awaken to the sounds of your dog barking and the sounds yelling in the hallway directly in front of your bedroom door.

You are 100% certain that no one should be in your house. No one else lives with you, no one is visiting, and you are scared. You can't tell what they are yelling because your dog is barking very loudly and your wife is now freaking out. You are a law-abiding citizen and have no reason for the police to be serving a search warrant on your house.

You open your door and are met by several men dressed in dark clothes shining bright lights in your eyes. You can tell they have guns. They are about 20 feet away, down the hallway. Now you hear them say "POLICE POLICE POLICE! HANDS! LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS!" You can't see what they are wearing because of the bright flashlight.

What is your next action?

This is a true story and I'll fill in the details of the outcome and what lead up to this incident after some discussion.

This isn't a thread about if these things happen or if they should...it did.

This isn't a thread about, "This would never happen to me, because..." or "Before this I would have..."

This is a thread to see how the regulars here would react in this situation from the point I've stopped the story. Maybe you'll offer some way to a better outcome, maybe you'll learn something to arrive at a more desirable outcome.

I'd like to let this go a couple of pages, to let a lot of folks chime in, before telling you how it really turned out and perhaps out some suggestions of how to react or avoid this kind of thing happening to you

 

[hogshead]

First mistake opening the door without calling 911.

 

[leutenant dan]

yeah, i would have called 911 to begin with, having my 12 guage pump in hand. wife would be locked in a safe room.

but since it didnt go down that way there would be two things i could assume:

1. they actually are cops and i would hit the floor

2. they are thugs pretending to be cops and the show is over since i opened the door without my gun.

either situation seems pretty bleek. do you know if it was really the cops or thugs?

 

[Librarian]

Sounds like a Cory Maye variant.

As set up, the home-owner is not armed at the time of opening the door.

Slam the bedroom door (hope it's sturdy) and recover from the mistake (understandable in the circumstances) hogshead identified - call 911.

Look out the bedroom window for red/blue lights.

I don't know what entry-team tactics are to respond to someone slamming a door in their faces; I'd guess they would do something(s) different from a group of home invaders.

Scary.

 

[JoeSlomo]

Well....seeing as how the first thing they would see is a man behind the gun light of an AR, I can see this being an ugly situation for everyone involved. If I didn't get blasted initially, I would back off and hole up until I could get positive I.D. of the "police", via cell phone, prior to abiding by any commands. Failing positive I.D., I would fight for my life until real police arrived.

 

[mljdeckard]

It is tough, but in reality, I probably would drop the gun. I think the odds of the police kicking in the wrong door or following someone into my place after pursuit are somewhat higher than bad guys targeting me and impersonating cops.

 

[B yond]

wait...bad guys can't impersonate the police. It's against the law!

 

[jbkebert]

This leads to huge problem with police serving no knock warrents. If the persons are already in your home and are annoucned only by your dog. It has been prven in court that you would have the right to defend yourself. Although I would if at all possible get 911 on the phone and hold up until absolutly forced to.

Several years ago the Topeka police department served a no knock warrent on a supected drug dealer. The suspected dealer Stephen Shivley if I remember right was the guys name. The police burst in the front door and Mr. Shilvey opened fire on them. Officer Tony Patterson was killed in the line of duty. Other officers were able to arrest Shivley and take him to jail. Although charged with numerous drug charges and the murder of the officer. Shivley was found guilty of the drug related charges but was found innocent in the death of the police officer. My personal opinion in this does not matter. However it serves as a reminder of the extream risk officers take with this type of unannounced entry.

The last thing I would ever want is to see or hear of another LEO killed in a instance like this. Raids on the wrong house do happen not often but once is more than enough. Tough question very much damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[RTR_RTR]

It is tough, but in reality, I probably would drop the gun. I think the odds of the police kicking in the wrong door or following someone into my place after pursuit are somewhat higher than bad guys targeting me and impersonating cops.

My rationale as well (assuming you have a gun, don't see that detail mentioned). Regardless, it's either LEOs, and you really don't want to appear "aggressive," or it's multiple BGs with a vast upper hand and you're not looking too hot. Seems the combination of odds and possible outcomes of both situations dictates submitting.

 

[xddp]

I would call 911 before the door was ever opened, at that time they should tell you whether police are there already giving you an idea of what might be on the other side. Thinking and talking about this while feeling very safe in front of my laptop is completely different from heat of the moment tactics though. I would have put my wife in the closet as I was calling 911, grabbing my 870 and stood next to the door (NOT IN FRONT OF IT) yelling "Who is it." Police wont fire at a closed door unless to unlock it. If they are thugs, they will probobly open fire on the closed door, hence I am not behind it but to the side.

 

[9mmepiphany]

This is pretty interesting so far...to put you mind at ease, none of it is contrived. This is exactly what happened (not to me, I'm repeating it)

I promise, you'll find the real outcome very interesting and enlightening...there has been some pretty good observations and reasoning so far

 

[docnyt]

That's tough. Seems like a no-win situation whether it's bad guys or cops facing you. If I didn't have a gun in hand, I would attempt to retreat back to the bedroom shouting I'm calling 911, grab the gun while getting the phone and retreating with wife to a safer position.

If they start firing on a guy that's retreating, I'm going to assume it's NOT the police and start firing back. If they are the cops, hopefully they will continue to dialogue until things are cleared up and I will comply if they are safely able to prove they are cops while I'm talking to 911.

 

[kingpin008]

First mistake opening the door without calling 911.

Bingo. First thing I'm doing is arming myself and getting the wife and myself into whatever part of the room is the safest.

Regardless if the people are cops or if they're robbers, they're not supposed to be there and will have to come to me if they want me. Making them close the distance and enter the room will give me more time to think, and therefore to react to whatever new information I can decipher about the situation in the meantime.

 

[Sam1911]

You open your door and are met by several men dressed in dark clothes shining bright lights in your eyes. You can tell they have guns. They are about 20 feet away, down the hallway. Now you hear them say "POLICE POLICE POLICE! HANDS! LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS!" You can't see what they are wearing because of the bright flashlight.

Given this statement -- that I've made no attempt to arm myself or prepare any defense at all before opening that door and alerting the intruders/officers to my presence and location -- I don't see much I would be likely to do besides surrender and pray for a safe outcome. Multiple alert/amped up men with carbines, 20' away from my pajama'd, sleep-eyed self and my gun still locked under the bed? I don't have any mad skills that I could hope to call on to turn the tables and prevail with justified explosive violence.

Given the defined situation exactly as presented, I'm vulnerable, unarmed, and completely compromised at that point. Regardless whether the intruders are law officers or thugs, there are quite a few motions I might make that would get me (and possibly my wife directly behind me) immediately perforated.

It sucks, but that's how I see it.

...

As an alternate, there might be some way to use positional advantage, maybe slamming the door as suggested, and retreating from the doorway hoping to buy time to go for the defensive armament and command the room entrance (buying time to contact 911, communicate with the intruders, verify identities, etc.). But a rush of the door by the entry team would beat me to the punch. I'd give that one a 5-10% chance of success.

 

[armoredman]

To get into my home they have to defeat security screen doors, steel security main doors, alarm systems and two very irritated dogs, so I think in my personal unique case I would have a little bit more warning. 911 and the vz-58 on standby, get my son in his vest in the safe room, proceed with caution, depending on what the 911 operator says. If 911 says that's PD serving a search warrant, I will comply with directives, say nothing and get my attorney involved ASAP. If not, proceed accordingly.

 

[Manco]

If I could retreat to my bedroom without getting killed, I'd hole up as best I could, arm myself, call 911, and do everything I could to identify the home invaders. I'd tell them that I'm calling 911, and try to judge from any responses whether they're real cops. If time permits, I'd ask the 911 dispatcher to contact the tactical team to find out whether they're conducting a raid at my address (or something reasonably close in the event of errors). If I'm sure that they're not cops, I'd fire upon anybody who enters the room; if I'm wrong, heaven forbid, then whatever happens would just be a sad consequence of no-knock raids (probably for some unworthy reason like drugs, which in my case would be mistaken identity anyway), and I did what I could. If I'm still not sure, then I think that the odds may favor surrender. That's a tough call because criminals who are that serious about what they do may be equally serious about leaving no witnesses alive. But not only do I want to stay alive (and I'm pretty sure that a SWAT team would kill me if I mistakenly took them on), but I don't want to shoot police officers who are just doing their job, of course.

Well, that was tough, and I probably said some naive things, I don't know, but we're all here to learn.

Regardless, it's either LEOs, and you really don't want to appear "aggressive," or it's multiple BGs with a vast upper hand and you're not looking too hot. Seems the combination of odds and possible outcomes of both situations dictates submitting.

This certainly differs from my propensity to shoot at bad guys who break into my home, even when they outnumber me. My rationale is that in the vast majority of cases, criminals (even home invaders) aren't as motivated to press the attack as I am to survive. In fact, it's their own survival instinct that should spur them to retreat in the face of incoming fire, and deep down inside they know that they don't belong there, just like these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM

One thing that I left out of consideration, however, is the fact that somebody has been threatening to kill me for a while now. To me this means that I can ill-afford to surrender to home invaders, who may be there specifically to execute me. It means that I'd only surrender if I were willing to bet my life that the invaders are police officers. I'm dead if I'm wrong either way, so that's a tough decision to make under stress, no doubt. Whatever happens to me, I don't want to shoot at cops, but they do way too many of these no-knock raids for anybody's good, and usually not for justifiable reasons (just pointing out the obvious).

 

[PcolaDawg]

In all honesty, in that exact scenario, I'd probably drop the gun and reach for the skies.

 

[Al Thompson]

I'm sort of with Pcola on this one. As with the Jeff White rule, if my first indicator is that bad guys are in my hallway and I'm unarmed and I can't find the cell phone, I'm pretty much toast.

For those who aren't aware of it, the Jeff White rule is that if someone can breach your household perimeter without alerting you, you have failed the planning process for home security.

 

[RTR_RTR]

This certainly differs from my propensity to shoot at bad guys who break into my home, even when they outnumber me. My rationale is that in the vast majority of cases, criminals (even home invaders) aren't as motivated to press the attack as I am to survive. In fact, it's their own survival instinct that should spur them to retreat in the face of incoming fire, and deep down inside they know that they don't belong there, just like these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM

One thing that I left out of consideration, however, is the fact that somebody has been threatening to kill me for a while now. To me this means that I can ill-afford to surrender to home invaders, who may be there specifically to execute me. It means that I'd only surrender if I were willing to bet my life that the invaders are police officers. I'm dead if I'm wrong either way, so that's a tough decision to make under stress, no doubt. Whatever happens to me, I don't want to shoot at cops, but they do way too many of these no-knock raids for anybody's good, and usually not for justifiable reasons (just pointing out the obvious).

I certainly understand where you're coming from, with or without the death threats (good luck with that, by the way). I just think the combination of

a) increased likelihood that it's police
b) possibility of being shot by police for suddenly turning and running
c) low likelihood of survival if it is a set of bg's who have murder on mind as an option (you're essentially in a 6 foot wide shooting lane with several gunners)

makes surrendering the best option in that situation. It very well may not be the best option if you were able to confirm them as bg's (discussion for another thread), but you're playing the odds here.

 

[heeler]

There is a lot of talk here of dialing 911 and engaging in some phone conversation but in reality you have just been awaken from a deep sleep(and I sleep like the dead!!) and there is a large group of men storming the house...Come on, few of us are going to be screwing around with the telephone because the very moment you realize that your peaceful home has been utterly compromised and your very existense may be surely coming to a screeching halt in mere moments I would go into the most amped out survival mode I could think of and calling 911 at that moment aint in my plan book at all.
Think about how fast all of this is unfolding and I doubt few if any of us would be carrying on with a telephone conversation waiting for the nanny state to assist us.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Think about how fast all of this is unfolding and I doubt few if any of us would be carrying on with a telephone conversation waiting for the nanny state to assist us.

...and hence a reason to consider the usefulness of maintaining a hardwired landline

 

[jon86]

I would never have opened the bedroom door. I would have grabbed the 12 gauge and my wife would back me up with a glock 17 and a cell phone. We would head into our master bathroom just like we've practiced.

HOWEVER.
According to the thread I've already opened the bedroom door with no firearm. I've screwed myself. At this point it seems as though I have two options:
1. Show my empty hands and comply with the commands.
OR
2. Quickly shut the door, hoping that they do not shoot through the door at me. I don't have 5 seconds to waste grabbing the shotgun, so I'd grab a handgun which is located only about three feet from the bedroom door, and head to the bathroom with the wife, hoping that she grabbed a firearm as well.

The disadvantages of the first choice: They may simply want me to just lie there with my hands in plain view. Or if the individuals aren't the cops, things could get very very bad for me very very fast.

The disadvantages of the second choice: I'd have to grab a gun and grab my wife in the amount of time that it takes a fully awake man to run 20 feet and open the door.

I'd honestly probably comply.

 

[MikeNice]

There is a lot of talk here of dialing 911 and engaging in some phone conversation but in reality you have just been awaken from a deep sleep(and I sleep like the dead!!) and there is a large group of men storming the house...Come on, few of us are going to be screwing around with the telephone because the very moment you realize that your peaceful home has been utterly compromised and your very existense may be surely coming to a screeching halt in mere moments I would go into the most amped out survival mode I could think of and calling 911 at that moment aint in my plan book at all.
Think about how fast all of this is unfolding and I doubt few if any of us would be carrying on with a telephone conversation waiting for the nanny state to assist us.

I have to agree with this. Once TSHTF most plans evaporate. My own recent SD adventure did not go anything like I planned. (I was basically back pedalling and didn't think of my gun untill my path backwards was blocked. Then the fight instinct took over.) I survived, but there was no magical epiphany that made things clear. If anything I lost most of my critical thinking ability. I know that I would not be able to hold a conversation with a communications clerk.

My reaction would hopefully be, slam the door, get the wife on the floor behind the bed, and go for the gun. If my kid is in the room with us, they go on the floor with mom. If they are on the other end of the house, I'll probably end up dead trying to get across the house.

In reality I'll probably drop to the ground and comply. That is what we are trained to do by society, comply with cops. In this situation it might get your head splattered. However, I believe it is how the majority of people, including myself, would react.

 

[luigi]

I have to ask "What are the odds?" Jeff White (Not that he is the world's leading expert but I respect his opinion) has stated over and over that if you're not involved in criminal activity such as the drug trade or a member of a know target group <edited> who would be compromised by contacting the police your odds of ever being in this situation are almost non existent.

If you are that concerned about this scenario (I am because of the circumstances of my life) then you start by making entrance into your home difficult. I have three doors leading into my home when we’re in for the day all three doors are barred such that they physically cannot be opened from the outside of the house unless you take out some wall w/ them.

I have no doubt I will have ample time to call the police and verify <edited>

 

[9mmepiphany]

The odds are very slim indeed, that is why I offer it for consideration...the teaching point will become clear when I explain.

Just a bit of Patience is needed