easyg
Member
I know that this answer will upset some folks here, but to be totally honest, unless the people outside my bedroom were yelling "fire", I would probably shoot through my bedroom door without even opening it.
Yeah, I know...
A situation to consider...looking for input
- Thread starter 9mmepiphany
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Yeah, I know...
txhoghunter
Member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2010
- Messages
- 663
hands. up. fast.
yeah, I would be too stunned by the lights and quick movement to resist even if they were not actually police officers.
yeah, I would be too stunned by the lights and quick movement to resist even if they were not actually police officers.
content
Member
Hello friends and neighbors // I read the OP a few times and am now posting without reading the responses. I am eager to do so.
1) If there had been a home invasion across the street, I would immediatly be armed with a handgun and flashlight (This is left open in the op) and my wife would be calling 911, freaking out or not I'd push her toward the closet with the phone ---because if we did not already have one we would have formulated a plan in the last year. (I hope)
2) If "I can hear" my dog barking loudly, it is not in the room with me and has not been silenced/killed. ---Pro for it being the Police.
3) I imagine the home invaders would rush forward or fire instead of showing the restraint to give commands.
My answer:
Instinct would make me close the door.
It would be easier for my mind to accept the idea of home invaders first.
I would then retreat to my wife and the shotgun in the closet, yelling we are callling 911 and we are armed. If she was still freaking out I would have to call 911.
Keep repeating this and adding my name and address until dispatch solves the problem or the home invaders enter the funnel.
-----At least I hope to think like this at 4:00am---
1) If there had been a home invasion across the street, I would immediatly be armed with a handgun and flashlight (This is left open in the op) and my wife would be calling 911, freaking out or not I'd push her toward the closet with the phone ---because if we did not already have one we would have formulated a plan in the last year. (I hope)
2) If "I can hear" my dog barking loudly, it is not in the room with me and has not been silenced/killed. ---Pro for it being the Police.
3) I imagine the home invaders would rush forward or fire instead of showing the restraint to give commands.
My answer:
Instinct would make me close the door.
It would be easier for my mind to accept the idea of home invaders first.
I would then retreat to my wife and the shotgun in the closet, yelling we are callling 911 and we are armed. If she was still freaking out I would have to call 911.
Keep repeating this and adding my name and address until dispatch solves the problem or the home invaders enter the funnel.
-----At least I hope to think like this at 4:00am---
Last edited:
content
Member
Wow, interesting posts.
I was thinking fight or flight, submit never entered my mind.
I was thinking fight or flight, submit never entered my mind.
Sommerled
Member
Hands up quickly. Too startled and the bright lights would be confusing for me coming out of a deep sleep.
I would hope to think that I would not have opened the door. Years ago,when living in Chicago and finishing school and before kids came along, my wife and I could only afford a cheap place in a bad neighborhood. We never did have a crime issue but our dog (I still miss that dog) slept in our bedroom, and the bedroom had as good a lock as the apartment door.
I would hope to think that I would not have opened the door. Years ago,when living in Chicago and finishing school and before kids came along, my wife and I could only afford a cheap place in a bad neighborhood. We never did have a crime issue but our dog (I still miss that dog) slept in our bedroom, and the bedroom had as good a lock as the apartment door.
OP
OP
Now- for the rest of the story...
This is how the situation began from the viewpoint of the police:
At around 4am on a weekday an officer was dispatched to a residential alarm. No big deal...97% of B&E alarms are false alarms.
He gets to the house, walks around the perimeter and finds a single family home with two cars in the driveway. There is poor lighting around the house and 1/2 of the perimeter is concealed by a fence and bushes. The patio door, that is concealed from view from the road, is open. He looks into the patio and sees what looks like fresh sand on the rug inside the door and a pair of shoes a couple of feet from the door. The alarm activation was reported, by the alarm company, as coming from the patio door. It is now about 10 minutes from the time the alarm was activated.
The officer has worked the area for 3+ years. He responded to and was first on scene, less than a year before, to a real home invasion at a house across the street. That call involved multiple suspects with handguns and rifles. He has responded to dozens of calls of drug activity in the immediate area during that time. He is aware of dozens of gang related assaults and robberies within a few blocks. He has responded to multiple murders in a nearby housing community related to gang activity. He knows the neighborhood to be a good neighborhood with respectable residents but plagued with issues brought on by the proximity of the nearby public housing community.
The officer requests backup. About 10 units respond including a Sgt. (It's 4 am on a weekday...they were bored) They all park about a block away and walk up to the house. Officers surround the house and five officers go to the open door. The hoods of the two cars in the driveway are both cold. They request that dispatch call the house and try to make contact with the residents. The only number they can find is the one that the alarm company gives them. They try it once and receive no answer. The Sgt. on the scene says something to the effect of "Call them again. No one wants to go in and surprise an armed resident if it can be avoided. They can hear nothing from outside the house and dispatch reports that there is still no answer.
The 5 officers behind the house have already acknowledged the possibility that there could be a legally armed resident in the house. So after two tries by phone and no answer, and based on the totality of the circumstances outlined above, the decision was made to make entry.
The point officer (Ofcr A) pushes the door all the way open and announces " POLICE OFFICERS, POLICE OFFICERS, POLICE OFFICERS, ANYONE INSIDE COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP!" as loud as he possibly could… No in reply…they enter. It was an enclosed addition to the residence with several rooms that were cleared without finding anyone. Ofcr A was holding at the main door to the residence…hoping was locked.
It wasn't.
Ofcr A pushed open the door and again announced, several times, very loudly. They entered into a living room area and the Cpl. who was 3rd in line gave two more warnings. (The Sgt. later said that he could hear them plainly outside and was waiting for the neighbors' to start turning on their lights to see what was going on.) There is still no reply from inside the house.
Ofcr A begin to enter a hallway with 5 or 6 doors when a door opens at the end. He shines his 800 lumen light at the door and a man wearing shorts comes into view. The officers are yelling " POLICE, POLICE, HANDS, LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS, HANDS!". The guys stops and holds his hands up. Ofcr A ask him if he lives in the house and he replies that he does. They turn on the living room light. He can see that they are uniformed police officers. He says his wife was in the room with him, and a large rotty mix comes out of the room barking. The homeowner says that the dog hadn't barked until he had heard the officers yelling and he had opened the door.
They tell him that there had been an alarm activation in their residence, they had found a door open and the door to their house unlocked. A search of the rest of the house showed that no strangers were inside.
They spoke with the residents and found out that one of them had walked the dog earlier, the door must not have closed all the way and the wind blew it open. Of course, both thought they had locked both doors. They only had cell phones, the wife was the one that had her number listed with the alarm company. Her phone was on the kitchen table… on vibrate...with 2 missed calls from the police...the husband's number was not on file anywhere.
And the (big damn) dog wound up being worthless...if it had been sleeping in the living room or kitchen it would have woken before the residents and would have at least woken the residents.
So now you know that there are the legitimate reasons for the police coming in your residence, seemingly unannounced, for no apparent reason…a search warrant isn't the only reason the police may enter your house. You don't have to be a drug dealer or a gangbanger...you just have to have an alarm and not lock you doors
The responses here have been pretty well thought out. Showing that you aren't a threat would be the big thing to remember...please don't yell and charge them.
If you are caught in the hallway, whether armed or not, shooting it out isn't the survivable answer...this isn't a video game where you get points for the number of BGs you take down with you.
Closing the door isn't a bad idea, if you are thinking that clearly at that moment, as the logic of LEOs not usually shooting through doors is well thought out. A stand off may buy you time to call 9-1-1 and clear up what is happening before anyone gets hurt.
Personally, I would not have armed myself and answered the door either. If I knew no one should have been in the house and I heard voices shouting, I would have grabbed my gun and cell phone, grabbed the wife and hustled her into the bathroom where we would be in a defensible position while calling 9-1-1. Having children does make it more complicated and you'll have to plan accordingly
I hope this has provided some food for thought and given you a different point of view of things that happen in real life
This is how the situation began from the viewpoint of the police:
At around 4am on a weekday an officer was dispatched to a residential alarm. No big deal...97% of B&E alarms are false alarms.
He gets to the house, walks around the perimeter and finds a single family home with two cars in the driveway. There is poor lighting around the house and 1/2 of the perimeter is concealed by a fence and bushes. The patio door, that is concealed from view from the road, is open. He looks into the patio and sees what looks like fresh sand on the rug inside the door and a pair of shoes a couple of feet from the door. The alarm activation was reported, by the alarm company, as coming from the patio door. It is now about 10 minutes from the time the alarm was activated.
The officer has worked the area for 3+ years. He responded to and was first on scene, less than a year before, to a real home invasion at a house across the street. That call involved multiple suspects with handguns and rifles. He has responded to dozens of calls of drug activity in the immediate area during that time. He is aware of dozens of gang related assaults and robberies within a few blocks. He has responded to multiple murders in a nearby housing community related to gang activity. He knows the neighborhood to be a good neighborhood with respectable residents but plagued with issues brought on by the proximity of the nearby public housing community.
The officer requests backup. About 10 units respond including a Sgt. (It's 4 am on a weekday...they were bored) They all park about a block away and walk up to the house. Officers surround the house and five officers go to the open door. The hoods of the two cars in the driveway are both cold. They request that dispatch call the house and try to make contact with the residents. The only number they can find is the one that the alarm company gives them. They try it once and receive no answer. The Sgt. on the scene says something to the effect of "Call them again. No one wants to go in and surprise an armed resident if it can be avoided. They can hear nothing from outside the house and dispatch reports that there is still no answer.
The 5 officers behind the house have already acknowledged the possibility that there could be a legally armed resident in the house. So after two tries by phone and no answer, and based on the totality of the circumstances outlined above, the decision was made to make entry.
The point officer (Ofcr A) pushes the door all the way open and announces " POLICE OFFICERS, POLICE OFFICERS, POLICE OFFICERS, ANYONE INSIDE COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP!" as loud as he possibly could… No in reply…they enter. It was an enclosed addition to the residence with several rooms that were cleared without finding anyone. Ofcr A was holding at the main door to the residence…hoping was locked.
It wasn't.
Ofcr A pushed open the door and again announced, several times, very loudly. They entered into a living room area and the Cpl. who was 3rd in line gave two more warnings. (The Sgt. later said that he could hear them plainly outside and was waiting for the neighbors' to start turning on their lights to see what was going on.) There is still no reply from inside the house.
Ofcr A begin to enter a hallway with 5 or 6 doors when a door opens at the end. He shines his 800 lumen light at the door and a man wearing shorts comes into view. The officers are yelling " POLICE, POLICE, HANDS, LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS, HANDS!". The guys stops and holds his hands up. Ofcr A ask him if he lives in the house and he replies that he does. They turn on the living room light. He can see that they are uniformed police officers. He says his wife was in the room with him, and a large rotty mix comes out of the room barking. The homeowner says that the dog hadn't barked until he had heard the officers yelling and he had opened the door.
They tell him that there had been an alarm activation in their residence, they had found a door open and the door to their house unlocked. A search of the rest of the house showed that no strangers were inside.
They spoke with the residents and found out that one of them had walked the dog earlier, the door must not have closed all the way and the wind blew it open. Of course, both thought they had locked both doors. They only had cell phones, the wife was the one that had her number listed with the alarm company. Her phone was on the kitchen table… on vibrate...with 2 missed calls from the police...the husband's number was not on file anywhere.
And the (big damn) dog wound up being worthless...if it had been sleeping in the living room or kitchen it would have woken before the residents and would have at least woken the residents.
So now you know that there are the legitimate reasons for the police coming in your residence, seemingly unannounced, for no apparent reason…a search warrant isn't the only reason the police may enter your house. You don't have to be a drug dealer or a gangbanger...you just have to have an alarm and not lock you doors
The responses here have been pretty well thought out. Showing that you aren't a threat would be the big thing to remember...please don't yell and charge them.
If you are caught in the hallway, whether armed or not, shooting it out isn't the survivable answer...this isn't a video game where you get points for the number of BGs you take down with you.
Closing the door isn't a bad idea, if you are thinking that clearly at that moment, as the logic of LEOs not usually shooting through doors is well thought out. A stand off may buy you time to call 9-1-1 and clear up what is happening before anyone gets hurt.
Personally, I would not have armed myself and answered the door either. If I knew no one should have been in the house and I heard voices shouting, I would have grabbed my gun and cell phone, grabbed the wife and hustled her into the bathroom where we would be in a defensible position while calling 9-1-1. Having children does make it more complicated and you'll have to plan accordingly
I hope this has provided some food for thought and given you a different point of view of things that happen in real life
docnyt
Member
Interesting story. It could have been disastrous for all concerned had the owner been armed and ready. Lots of lapses in basic safety on his end. Everything that could have prevented an actual home invasion went wrong. I hope none of us will do so poorly.
fallout mike
Member
How did you not hear your alarm go off?
docnyt
Member
That's a good question but the OP is only repeating the events and is not the protagonist. For that matter, how deaf is the dog?
easyg
Member
I have known plenty of folks who sleep real heavily, but I just can't imagine two people (and a dog) not hearing the alarm or the repeated yells of "police!!!" from the entry team.
I can see someone not hearing the police enter. I sleep in earplugs half of the time since my wife snores like a chainsaw and I also work shiftwork so there's a lot of noise in the neighborhood during the day. I also work doubles now and then so that adds to how deep I sleep.
I probably would have heard an alarm going off but I might miss the sounds of the police entering.
I probably would have heard an alarm going off but I might miss the sounds of the police entering.
Speaking of flight, that thought entered my mind, as well. If, say, I tried to escape out my back door (my bedroom has one), then crooks are probably far less likely than cops to have that area covered. This is probably better than submitting to bad guys, particularly in my case.
content
Member
They were hard sleepers, I've known a few folks like that, always wondered how they do it.
It surprised me the HO were not more in tune to the crimes going on around them.
This has me on a search for all crimes commited near the residences of my family members.
I am always glad of the input from LEOs, where else do you get first hand knowledge of these situations.
Was there a change in protocol/procedure after this, such as using a bullhorn before entering? If the police were yelling loud enough to be heard outside and possibly wake the neighbors, might as well give the bullhorn a try.
Even after many discussions with my Father (small town Sheriff) and Uncle (big city Detective) I am amazed at the countless things such as this ,they take for granted, or that are just "part of the job".
Thanks for making me think.
Glad it worked out well, I would not have wanted to be in either of their shoes.
It surprised me the HO were not more in tune to the crimes going on around them.
This has me on a search for all crimes commited near the residences of my family members.
I am always glad of the input from LEOs, where else do you get first hand knowledge of these situations.
Was there a change in protocol/procedure after this, such as using a bullhorn before entering? If the police were yelling loud enough to be heard outside and possibly wake the neighbors, might as well give the bullhorn a try.
Even after many discussions with my Father (small town Sheriff) and Uncle (big city Detective) I am amazed at the countless things such as this ,they take for granted, or that are just "part of the job".
Thanks for making me think.
Glad it worked out well, I would not have wanted to be in either of their shoes.
OP
OP
I'm sorry I didn't address this...one of those things I took for granted that folks knew about. It was a silent alarm...usually associated with banks.fallout mike said:
Alarms fall into two categories, Audible and Silent. They are usually sold as Audible to scare burglars away (sure it does) and Silent to have them there when LE gets there.
Silent Alarms are monitored by the company who then alerts local LE to respond. They usually call the resident first to insure it is a real activation and ask for a code word/phrase before dispatching LE
OP
OP
You could also go out a window from your bedroom.
But, if it really is LE, you're in a worst place than you were before...BGs usually try to go out a window and you'll likely just run into a single officer (rises the tension level)
If several armed men are in the hallway, I am CLEARLY outgunned and cornered (unless there is a back escape from the bedroom ... patio, etc). If they want me dead, they would have shot me the moment I came out of the door (I think).
I'd probably comply with their wishes and hope this is a case of mistaken identity.
Call me a pansy if you wish.
I'd probably comply with their wishes and hope this is a case of mistaken identity.
Call me a pansy if you wish.
OP
OP
Believe me it wouldn't make any difference.content said:
I've responded to a number of Welfare Check calls where I've pounded on doors (with a baton) and could hear the phone ringing (back in the days when landlines were more common) from outside that didn't receive a response. I've never had to force entry, as a door was usually unlocked (not a good sign), and my announcing voice has never been described as hard to hear.
I've still found folks asleep in bedrooms...often indelicato. I consider myself lucky, none have ever come up/out shooting
PcolaDawg
Member
As I stated in an earlier post, I would've reached for the sky as the odds would be pretty overwhelming that they were police, and that any other move would've ended in tragedy (for me and mine).
Fortunately, I bought a German Shepherd for my wife two years ago and it is now a seriously fierce protector of the home. It actually broke a door trying to get at a police officer who came to our house once.
We have since bought a much stronger door, but I (almost) pity anyone that comes into our home uninvited. That dog would tear 'em up or die in the attempt.
Fortunately, I bought a German Shepherd for my wife two years ago and it is now a seriously fierce protector of the home. It actually broke a door trying to get at a police officer who came to our house once.
We have since bought a much stronger door, but I (almost) pity anyone that comes into our home uninvited. That dog would tear 'em up or die in the attempt.
ATBackPackin
Member
I have three dogs that would have definitely been barking, but I play along. If I did it as in the scenario it's hard to say without actually being in the moment, but I honestly THINK that my natural instinct would have been to get back in the bedroom, shut the door and possibly put something in front of it, and to arm myself. I would also think that in this scenario since the police didn't know if it was the homeowner that they wouldn't not knock down the door and blaze away. I could see them at that point again stating that they are the police through the closed door and would give me the opportunity to verify and then get to the bottom of the incident. I doubt in this situation they would have shot a person in their underwear in the back while responding to an alarm.
SoulLessGinger
Member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2010
- Messages
- 69
Multiple fails by the resident. So glaring they don't even need to be restated.
Thankfully my alarm is so loud, the neighbors would be startled from a dead sleep. To me it's another advantage, as I've cleared my house with it going off before, and it is so loud it's disorienting if you're weren't used to it.
Also having a dog is a must. My big mean doberman sleeps on the couch in the living room. Anyone entering the house at night would be forced to shoot him (good luck with that), hopefully giving me the time I need to get across the hall to my 2 year old's room. The dog is also a big help when clearing the house.
Interesting topic. And I'm actually suprised more home invasions don't involve impersonating officers.
Thankfully my alarm is so loud, the neighbors would be startled from a dead sleep. To me it's another advantage, as I've cleared my house with it going off before, and it is so loud it's disorienting if you're weren't used to it.
Also having a dog is a must. My big mean doberman sleeps on the couch in the living room. Anyone entering the house at night would be forced to shoot him (good luck with that), hopefully giving me the time I need to get across the hall to my 2 year old's room. The dog is also a big help when clearing the house.
Interesting topic. And I'm actually suprised more home invasions don't involve impersonating officers.
OP
OP
I'll share that when clearing a house as part of a team...I not only don't recommend this for homeowners, I highly advise against it...my greatest concern was always the presence of a dog.
I've drawn on two dogs, on calls, that made serious charges...yes I know the difference...in both cases my gun jumped out of my holster without conscious thought (thank you, Massad Ayoob & Ernest Langdon), the DA trigger was on it's way back as the gun was being extended with the sights aligned (thank you, Bruce Gray) and the only thing that saved them was the owners either jerking their leash or calling them off.
Those who have stated that most officers would not shoot through a closed door are correct...there are exceptions...especially when we have not identified the person we see. Sometimes the deciding factor is if they are armed and where the gun is pointing. A gun being brought to bear in this kind of situation will almost always draw gunfire
I've drawn on two dogs, on calls, that made serious charges...yes I know the difference...in both cases my gun jumped out of my holster without conscious thought (thank you, Massad Ayoob & Ernest Langdon), the DA trigger was on it's way back as the gun was being extended with the sights aligned (thank you, Bruce Gray) and the only thing that saved them was the owners either jerking their leash or calling them off.
Those who have stated that most officers would not shoot through a closed door are correct...there are exceptions...especially when we have not identified the person we see. Sometimes the deciding factor is if they are armed and where the gun is pointing. A gun being brought to bear in this kind of situation will almost always draw gunfire
Seattleimport
Member
Interesting! Given the setup situation, I would have complied. The lights, the yelling, the sleep-stupor... yep. Just comply with the loud armed men.
If I had a few seconds to think about it coldly and rationally, I suppose I'd consider immediately slamming (and locking) the door. With the assumption that real cops wouldn't shoot unless there was an immediate threat, and an unarmed man in his boxers doesn't qualify. Then again, maybe a cop with an imperfect line of sight to me would interpret my sudden motion for the door as a sudden motion for a weapon. Bang, I'm dead.
Hm. Yeah, probably the best bet is to comply.
Better bet? Move out of that scary-sounding neighborhood.
If I had a few seconds to think about it coldly and rationally, I suppose I'd consider immediately slamming (and locking) the door. With the assumption that real cops wouldn't shoot unless there was an immediate threat, and an unarmed man in his boxers doesn't qualify. Then again, maybe a cop with an imperfect line of sight to me would interpret my sudden motion for the door as a sudden motion for a weapon. Bang, I'm dead.
Hm. Yeah, probably the best bet is to comply.
Better bet? Move out of that scary-sounding neighborhood.
grampster
Member
The OP created a really bad situation. Personally, I would never have opened the door.
When we rebuilt the house and added a master bedroom, I had a 10' wide slider installed that goes outside to a portion of the deck that is at ground level. Our bedroom door to the rest of the house is always closed and locked as is the entry way bathroom door that is another entry way from another portion of the house. We keep two firearms handy to the bed, one on my nightstand and another in a walk in closet. Landline phone is a portable and next to the firearm as is a flashlite.
Don't have a dog. But if I did, and had the scenario described, we would have both been armed and exited through the slider into the yard and slipped behind a nearby hedge and phoned 911.
When we rebuilt the house and added a master bedroom, I had a 10' wide slider installed that goes outside to a portion of the deck that is at ground level. Our bedroom door to the rest of the house is always closed and locked as is the entry way bathroom door that is another entry way from another portion of the house. We keep two firearms handy to the bed, one on my nightstand and another in a walk in closet. Landline phone is a portable and next to the firearm as is a flashlite.
Don't have a dog. But if I did, and had the scenario described, we would have both been armed and exited through the slider into the yard and slipped behind a nearby hedge and phoned 911.
sidheshooter
Member
Good Thread.
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