A Winning Mindset.....

[Jeff White]

Crimson Trace Laser Grips has an ad on page 27 of the current (Dec 03) issue of American Rifleman. It says:

IN A GUNFIGHT, THERE ARE NO RULES...only losers and survivors

IMHO this sends the wrong message. While it is true that you will never be the same after a gunfight, to me they imply that you will somehow be damaged goods afterwords.

We need to get away from that kind of mindset and get back to teaching our students that it's not only preferable to come out on top after the fight..it's a good thing. To me this is the same type of thinking that sends many peace officers into counselling at the best, alcoholism or suicide after a deadly force encounter at the worst.

What's everyone else think?

Jeff

 

[G-Raptor]

If I should ever win a gunfight, everyone will get to see the extended version of my "happy dance" with high-fives all around. I might even spike my gun and do an NFL endzone boogie.

I agree, "survivor" implies that you're somehow damaged. I don't plan to survive, I plan to WIN - with no apologies. It's a one-on-one war - winning matters. Survivors are carried away from the battle, winners walk away.

 

[pax]

Jeff,

I dunno. I think maybe you're reading too much into what is, after all, just an ad.

Looking at the larger picture, I don't think there were fewer cases of PTSD following WWII than there were following, say, the Gulf War. And yet during the WWII era the guys were all encouraged to suck it up, hate the enemy and rejoice in the enemy's death. Nobody back then was talking about 'survivors,' only about 'victors.' But the victors didn't always sleep so good...

Fact is, people will react how they're going to react following a traumatic event. Telling them they might react a certain way isn't tantamount to telling them they must react a certain way -- and even if it were, that's still a long way from making them react that way.

pax

 

[dave3006]

Jeff, you are completely right.

Not all human life is equal. There are good and evil people in the world. If you are forced to kill an evil person, you can't victimize yourself in the aftermath. Some people, by the nature of their actions, have it coming. It is their fault not yours. They chose their actions.

Innocent human life is so precious it must be protected by deadly force sometimes. This is good and should not be understood in advance to avoid unnecessary self inflicted trama.

 

[c_yeager]

Ive known several people in my life who have had to kill someone at one time or another. The one who was happy about it was one of the most unbalanced and frightening people i have met. He made my skin crawl BEFORE i found out about his history, which he was quite enthused to tell me about. The others were people i had known for years before finding out.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Jeff- Your feelings here- as you well know- match mine exactly.
Loosers survive various life threatening experiences many times daily.
Most often their survival was due to luck, Karma, or some other intangible, rather then their skill (at arms, driving skiing or whatever).

To imply that you are happy to survive indicates a specific mindset.
To win implies another completely.
I only want to associate with the latter.

FWIW, i felt bad only about one shooting, and that was when i whacked my neighbors dog. He (the Pit Bull) had his teeth wrapped around my leg at the time, so the decision to put four shots into him was simple (his owner was nearby, and i saved two for him).
The dog- a fighter- was only doing what he had been trained to do (and had done to others on multiple occasions before), but i didn't feel good about having to shoot the dog.
A shooting will probably change your life- to a certain extant. Domestic shootings will also involve criminal and civil actions, and deep scrutiny by the media and various errornet.com forums.
So be it.
But if it was a good shoot, there is no reason to loose sleep over it- if you have been properly trained.
A bad shooting may be a whole lot different.

Last month, one of my students (also a very good friend) very good friend was in a OIS.
An idiot pointed a pistol at him. He fired an NSR with his M4.
One bad guy DRT. Two Deputies (both fired) went home that night.
No emotional trauma then or now.
They had been trained as to understand what would happen, prior to, during, and after the incident.

At our Marine Corps Birthday Ball, a guest paraprased Kevin Costner's words from a recent movie.
"Some people need killing, and you are going to kill them".

There is no reason to become an emotional wreck if you did the right thing at the right time, and that involves being prepared for the eventuality of carrying a gun.
Mere possession of a firearm carries with it a strong legal, moral and ethical responsibility. If you can't hang, find something else to do.

During my 20 years as a cop in NYPD, i worked a variety of assignments including Central Robbery Division.
I once re-interviewed an MD who was the victim of a Pattern Robber. As i was walking out of his office, he stated to me "I'm glad that i didn't have my pistol yesterday".
When i asked why, he said "I've had a Carry Permit (sic) for 10 years, but i could nver shoot another human. I'm glad that i didn't have to make that decision".

I made sure that he never did. I had his license removed. If he didn't have the mindset to carry a gun, it would only become a liability.
He survived his incident. If he had been carrying, and suddenly found the grapes to actually use the pistol, he may or may not have survived.
But i doubt if he would have won....

Be prepared for what may happen. Seek the best training that you can get. And continue to train.
Don't be a survivor.
Be a winner.

 

[matsaleh]

Guilt vs. Trauma?

This is the first time I've checked out the "Strategies and Tactics" board here on THR. Most interesting and makes you think.

I'm still a CCW newbie (carrying since May '03), so I am trying to suck up all wisdom and experience I can from those who have gone before me. But what I bring to the table - as I hope most people do - is my personal ethics and value set.

I don't think anyone who kills to defend a life should feel guilty about it. It is a necessary action under those circumstances. However, that which is necessary is not always joyful or desirable given other circumstances. Most of us are trained to respect human life, so when it comes time to take a life it is usually because a person is forced to weigh the value of one life over that of another. That becomes probably the most important decision that person has ever made, and it had to be made under the most stressful of circumstances.

Given that, I can certainly see how, without harboring guilt or moral reservations about one's actions after the event, one could still be changed forever. Speaking for myself, I know I could kill to defend something greater than the life or health of my assialant if I had to. But afterwards, I would probably be a nervous wreck for a while, not emotionally or morally, but mentally and physically.

First, there's the stress of the incident itself, followed immediately by the stress of dealing with police and medical personell at the scene, plus the stress of making sure I recount events accurately while not embellishing or saying anything that might be misinterpreted, plus the legal stress of testifying and possibly being charged or sued (regardless of being justified), plus the financial stress of paying for the legal representation.

When I first got my TX CHL, my instructor impressed upon me the fact that, here in TX, every shooting results in a grand jury hearing, and the legal costs to simply be "no-billed" (i.e. not indicted) are about $18K. That gave me pause, thinking how in the world I could afford that. That pause lasted mere moments, as I realized the choice was easy. I would accept the burden and stress of trying to figure out how to defend myself in court over the serenity of being dead and unable to do so, or the peace of a gravesite visit to a loved one.

To me, the moral anguish would come if I ever failed to act as needed, causing the death of an innocent person.

 

[El Tejon]

IMHO, depends on the fight. For some reason everyone thinks they will be fighting the spawn of Satan for some novel or movie. Maybe a large percentage of the time, but as wise man sez, "no one can tell you what the fight will look like." Very true.

14 year old kid with a baseball bat made me feel ill and angry. The large Rottie (a car hit him as he was lunging for me) made me feel relieved ("and now News at 11, today, a lawsuit was filed against FORMER deputy prosecutor Tejon for his murder of a dog on 4th Street as he was walking home"), or 3 guys in the parking garage with 2 of 3 with "rap sheets" as long as your arm made me feel happy.

I object to any "default" setting. You WILL be joyful. Maybe, it depends. You WILL tear up and cry. Maybe, it depends; who did you fight and what happened.

I don't know what the fight will bring and I don't know what Problem #2 will bring. I do know that I will live, no matter what. All the more reason to train hard so that one will never have to fight.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

When LtCol Cooper was putting the Mindset Lecture into place, he stated- and repeated often- that "This is how i felt. You may not feel the same".

LT is correct here. Your frame of reference, upbringing, religious influence etc will all color your emotions, as will the influence of the media, print amd electronic.

Do not automatically believe that you will- or will not- feel any particulat emotion in the aftermath.

But if you haven't taken the time to train, don't be surprised if things don't have a fairy tale ending- assuming you don't take the big dirt nap.

Read "On Killing", by LtCol Dave Grossman.

 

[El Tejon]

Doing my gig, I find those that have a solid foundation of moral fiber (religious convictions, strong family, philosophy instilled by family or militree experience) prior to acting in self-defense, including deadly force, have the fewest problems. "Mr. Tejon, I'm not worried about what the grand jury, the Prosecuting Attorney, Special Prosecutor or admin agency will do. I did what I had to do and God (Yaweh, Vishnu, Allah, etc.) and my family know that."

I always tell my guys (and gals) not to listen to the media. Watch/read it after it is sorted out.

 

[JShirley]

Wow. Good read.

I disagree about "good" and "bad" people. When I entered the infantry, I firmly believed I might one day face someone over my rifle barrel who was (also) doing what he felt to be right. It would be my job to kill him, as it would be his job to kill me. No hate or demonification necessary, just an unpleasant reality that people die, and sometimes we kill them.

Much as Pat said, I could not understand the guys I went through Basic with, who wondered aloud if they could actually kill their fellow man. I had to wonder: this if the infantry. Why are you here?

John

 

[Tracy Hightower]

Problem #1 Saving your life.
Problem #2 Everything else.

Solve Problem #1 first.

The following is a quote from the book "Fighting Smarter" A Practical Guide for Surviving Violent Confrontations, By Tom Givens. Tom Givens is a full time trainer with over 25 Years of Law Enforcement and Professional Security Work. In my opinion he gives the best lecture on Mindset I have ever heard. If you ever get a chance to train with him it will be time and money well spent.

"I will not seek a fight, and if at all possible I will avoid one, but if one is forced upon me I will do whatever it takes to survive. "
"My sidearm is neither a status symbol nor an emotional crutch. I will not reach for it unless out of dire necessity, but if I must use deadly force to preserve my life or that of an innocent person, I will use it skillfully and without hesitation."

Tom is the "survivor" of several armed confrontations both as a Police Officer and a civilian. How you choose to label yourself after surviving an armed confrontation is just that, a CHOICE, not a matter of fate.
Friedrich Nietzsche said "That which does not kill me can only make me stronger"

 

[Ryder]

We need to get away from that kind of mindset and get back to teaching our students that it's not only preferable to come out on top after the fight..it's a good thing.

That statement about losers and survivors could be interpreted in that way.

Mindset is something which I find useful BEFORE it is needed but it must be based on a realistic expectation of success otherwise I avoid undertaking the task. That's called winning consistently. A confident mindset should be step 1 but I've seen others cursed with this doubtful trait and the results they achieve aren't pretty. I don't mind doubting my actions afterwards so much. Replaying past performance in my head helps me to improve. That is probably as it should be.

"Coming out on top" is my way, no fancy two-bit popular maxim influences me.

Semper Paratus

 

[Erik]

Losers = shot up and defeated

Survivor = victorious, shot up or not.

A pretty good mindset is one which insures you fall into the survivor category, if ever you are forced to choose.

(Don't get too caught up in the symantics.)

 

[fiVe]

I'm sortof in the same boat as matsaleh. I've been carrying since April '03 in Fla. Threads like this one are so good. I really like THR. I feel like a dry sponge & there is sooooo much to soak up.

R/fiVe

 

[Sleuth]

Words do have meaning.

Let us not get overly concerned with the semantics of surviving vs. winning, but let me offer another view. You win games. You win battles. You win elections. You win lawsuits. But a use of force confrontation is not a game, and it does not end with the last shot. It may not end for years, and for some people, it never ends.

"Happy Dances" and "High Fives" are not part of a positive stratagy to overcome "Problem 2", the police investigation, newpaper reports, and the possible criminal & civil lawsuits. The reality of life is that you must "survive" the confrontation to 'win' the criminal/civil problems. I have been there, done that, and it is not fun.

Lot's of folks here seem to have the idea that 'the day' will be just like TV - they are uninjured, the cops show up and congratulate him, ask a few questions, and then they all go out for pizza & a beer. Guess What: YOU may end up in the same ER as the bad guy you shot - and you may be happy to be there! And that officer who rode in the ambulance with you is NOT your friend. And while you may want to celebrate the fact that you are still alive, someone is injured or dead.

You need to pre-plan your defense in the physical, emotional, financial, and legal senses. I did not "win" my confrontation - a man died, needlessly. Five years later, the civil lawsuit went away (I "won"). If he had chosen to obey the law, he would be alive today. (And we could have saved a forest consumed in all the reports.)

With all due respect, if you survive the physical confrontation, you can win the lawsuits. But not the reverse.