Academy has tightened limits on 22lr
- Thread starter Queen_of_Thunder
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dogtown tom
Member
What makes you think those people getting up at the ass crack of dawn......don't have real jobs? Thats ignorance on your part and a faulty assumption. Heck if the hard core unemployed can make a few bucks flipping ammo on the internet.....God bless them for trying to make a buck.
What on earth makes you think you need a license to sell ammunition?
Federal law does not require it.
Further........they ARE paying taxes, as its a retail sale from WalMart.
Yeah its a system abuse.
Yeah, I don't care if they load up a bus with neighbors.......it's none of my business. You only whine because YOU are too lazy to get up early and wait in line for your three boxes.
And who gets up at the ass crack of dawn for WalMart to stock ammo? I don't and I pick up an average of six boxes PER DAY.
Potatohead
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They pay taxes on their gains? At Wal Mart? I was unaware of that. Ya know, you seem to be a real insider and know a lot about this "flipping" business. Paying attention to which companies put their price tags on the boxes and such. Odd, you're real touchy about it too.
Also, I think I mentioned that some people honestly need unemployment and disability and such. And I hope those folks that really need it can get it (and the system abusers havent taken all the slots). Ive managed a few of these types over the years and Ive seen it alot in my career so far. Its a sore spot at the moment. Have a nice day sir. This is off topic. Sorry OP
Also, I think I mentioned that some people honestly need unemployment and disability and such. And I hope those folks that really need it can get it (and the system abusers havent taken all the slots). Ive managed a few of these types over the years and Ive seen it alot in my career so far. Its a sore spot at the moment. Have a nice day sir. This is off topic. Sorry OP
km101
Member
That is one of the reasons that the stores impose limits. If more people come in to buy the limit, then the store has more chances to sell additional products.
They love it when 5 people come in to buy 1 box each, rather than 1 person buying 5 boxes!
They love it when 5 people come in to buy 1 box each, rather than 1 person buying 5 boxes!
Outlaw Man
Member
Just to clarify, sales tax would be paid (depending on the state) on the full sale price. Whether they're legally avoiding the sales tax I'm sure they're not paying is also a state matter. They would pay income tax on the profits, at least at the federal level. If not, the IRS may have something to say about it.
On topic, those scalpers get no more of my business than Cheaper Than Diamonds. I'm curious, though, if the lowered limit is to further spread product or because of a shortage in their supply lines.
On topic, those scalpers get no more of my business than Cheaper Than Diamonds. I'm curious, though, if the lowered limit is to further spread product or because of a shortage in their supply lines.
dogtown tom
Member
They would in states that require it.
In Texas they would pay as much as 8.25% sales tax on the purchase.
Seriously? What makes you thinl ammo purhase at WalMart are tax exempt?
If reading the weekly "OMG peoples are gouging, hoarding and reselling ammunition and I'm so jealous" thread on THR makes me an insider.....then yes.
I AM a licensed gun dealer if you couldn't figure that out from my sigline......I'm in the business of flipping anything I can get my hands on.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know a BS story when you read one.
I hate BS stories as much as whiners.
Potatohead
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I guess we all cheat the system now and again dont we
Btw its perfectly natural for a flipper to hate the whiny anti flipper threads I guess.
Btw its perfectly natural for a flipper to hate the whiny anti flipper threads I guess.
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Mike1234567
member
Yeah... this why my "trusty" local pawn shop in Floresville, TX is so "generously" is offering to buy my .22LR at $35/brick. Aren't they wonderful?
dogtown tom
Member
I don't cheat and don't tolerate those who do.
I prefer capitalism, sorry you don't.
And whiners gotta whine
wally
Member
And if they are reselling it they are supposed to be collecting the sales tax on the selling price. There is a form for intermittent sales like garage sales, tables at gun shows, etc. the seller is supposed to use. Enforcement is spotty, maybe a few letters ratting out the regular flippers who are not sending in their sales taxes could help turn things around in Texas and some other states.
Real business get a sales tax exemption if buying for resale at Sams or Walmart and don't pay the sales tax as they should be collecting it on the higher resale price later.
dogtown tom
Member
Since distributors have not had ammunition in stock for nearly all of 2013, small gun shops, pawn shops and other retailers have to go to alternative sources to find ammunition to sell to their customers.
In order to have ammunition available I've bought whatever i can get from whereever I can find it.......I'm not paying distributor price and certainly not going to sell at a loss.
Every internet business expert loves to crow about how Cheaper Than Dirt is gouging customers. What they fail to understand is you don't make a penny profit on stuff that doesn't sell. And if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY need a box of ammo..........CTD has it. You'll pay for the convenience however.
dogtown tom
Member
Yep.
Yep.
And a pretty good argument could be made that those flippers are engaging in intermittant sales.
Spotty? Thats an understatement. The Texas Comptrollers office only cares about those who have sales tax permits selling at gun shows. There are nonlicensees who have had the same three tables at Dallas Market Hall for the last eleven years.....no FFL and no TX sales tax permit.
wally
Member
They could be filing the form and paying the tax to the Comptrollers office after every show, but I'd not bet on it
I'd be really surprised if filed complaints wouldn't be acted upon, but I doubt anyone at gun shows really wants to invite scrutiny and bad PR.
Deaf Smith
Member
This is correct.
By making a limit of 1, scalpers will have to bring in more relatives to buy up all the stock.
No, it does not bother ME cause I have 3 525 round packs of Golden .22s and a 1400 round bucket (I shot alot of .22s out of my Glock 26 AACK unit.)
But I know some people want to take their kids out shooting and can find NOTHING.
Yea, 1 box per customer. I'm ok with that.
Deaf
22-rimfire
Member
Maybe? The shortage started with the election. Sandy Hook only increased the fear factor and everything compounded from there. I have not seen ANY 22LR in a Walmart since December 2012. I don't show up at 7:00 AM looking for the truck delivery, but you would think considering I go to Walmarts at least once a week, that I would have seen at least some 22LR. I will say that I'm seeing more handgun ammo at Walmart all the time, everything except 38spl or 357 mag...
People have been shifting to semi-auto rifles and handguns since the 50's. So, it took, 50 years for the shortage to show up?
Added: With regard to flippers.... if you are conducting a business, most counties (if not all) require a business license and if you make more than (I believe $700 a year), it is considered a business and not a hobby by the IRS. There are local taxes on the inventory, profits, and potentially gross revenue. So, yes, they are avoiding paying taxes on the resale and avoiding collecting sales tax on the resales. Add to that zoning laws. I don't believe there are actually insurance requirements on a business.
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Mike1234567
member
dogtown tom... Of course I support profit-making. BUT... if anyone is going to sell "my" .22LR for $65+ per brick it'll be me, not my local pawnshop after they've paid me $30 per brick.
No haters, please. I'm not selling my ammo at "gouge" prices. I'll just keep it.
22-rimfire... Local and state sales tax are only collected on intrastate sales. If one sells interstate, as is the probability with GunBroker and the like, there is no avoiding of sales tax. If one is merely selling the surplus of what he/she already bought and is not buying more product to immediately sell then there's no fraud there either.
No haters, please. I'm not selling my ammo at "gouge" prices. I'll just keep it.
22-rimfire... Local and state sales tax are only collected on intrastate sales. If one sells interstate, as is the probability with GunBroker and the like, there is no avoiding of sales tax. If one is merely selling the surplus of what he/she already bought and is not buying more product to immediately sell then there's no fraud there either.
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handyman163
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I read through and didn't see this anywhere, but I think the problem is that the manufacturers are putting out these 1000 round and 1400 round buckets/boxes rather than packaging them all in 500 round bricks.
My father in Louisiana is able to find 22lr most weeks and sometimes several times per week at both Academy and Wal-Mart. He's retired and can wait in line for when they open. He is not selling any of what he buys and is not buying up a hoard for the end of the world either. Academy and Wal-Mart have had 4 of the 1000 round or 1400 round buckets at a time, and it's ALWAYS guy #1 and guy #2 in line that buy them all. Sometimes it's the same guys there all the time doing the buying. He's waited for 40 minutes before as #4 in line, and only got one box of 50. This is with the 2-box limit. I definitely think the 2-box limit when you're allowed to buy the 1000 or 1400 round packs is ridiculous - it leaves nothing for anyone else who can't wait in line (actually have a job).
I'm sure the mfg's have efficiency gains when using larger packages, but it's only making their situation worse by prolonging the shortage. Selling more ammo to fewer people isn't helping anyone out. They need to package in smaller sizes to spread it around more (as in MORE OF THE COUNTRY - not just certain states). That, coupled with purchase limits, are the only way for the shortage to disappear. If stores always got shipments, people would stop panic-buying sooner.
That being said, I haven't seen ANY 22lr in Michigan at LGS or Wal-mart this year that was less than $60 per 500 rounds. I've even seen $90 per 500. All I've seen are CB shorts and CB longs.
My father in Louisiana is able to find 22lr most weeks and sometimes several times per week at both Academy and Wal-Mart. He's retired and can wait in line for when they open. He is not selling any of what he buys and is not buying up a hoard for the end of the world either. Academy and Wal-Mart have had 4 of the 1000 round or 1400 round buckets at a time, and it's ALWAYS guy #1 and guy #2 in line that buy them all. Sometimes it's the same guys there all the time doing the buying. He's waited for 40 minutes before as #4 in line, and only got one box of 50. This is with the 2-box limit. I definitely think the 2-box limit when you're allowed to buy the 1000 or 1400 round packs is ridiculous - it leaves nothing for anyone else who can't wait in line (actually have a job).
I'm sure the mfg's have efficiency gains when using larger packages, but it's only making their situation worse by prolonging the shortage. Selling more ammo to fewer people isn't helping anyone out. They need to package in smaller sizes to spread it around more (as in MORE OF THE COUNTRY - not just certain states). That, coupled with purchase limits, are the only way for the shortage to disappear. If stores always got shipments, people would stop panic-buying sooner.
That being said, I haven't seen ANY 22lr in Michigan at LGS or Wal-mart this year that was less than $60 per 500 rounds. I've even seen $90 per 500. All I've seen are CB shorts and CB longs.
wally
Member
Around here mostly I see 50 and the occasional 100 round box when I happen to be somewhere to look.
A lot depends on how much you shoot, I've not been in any line at Academy or Walmart its just not worth my time to go there for only 100 or even 1000 rounds as a "limit" even if the shelves were full, time would be better spent pumping my Dillon to turn out 9mm ammo. I enjoy shooting .22lr but if its going to cost as much and take as much time as to reload 9mm, the .22lr guns will collect dust until the ammo situation improves after my current supplies run out.
jcwit
member
No! Its a "Black Market". Per wikies definition a gray market is legal.
A black market is an illegal business, plain and simple. And this is what it has turned into. Those that camp out daily and buy up all of the commodity, in this case ammo, with the sole intent of flipping it have turned it into a non reporting profitable business transaction.
If it was a person selling a box or 2 that's an entirely different deal, but this is no longer what is happening. The same people are using retail outlets as a supplier for their own personal gain, which I'll guess profit's are not reported as income. Further these scalpers/gougers in many cases do not have retail licenses to conduct business.
jcwit, I take your point, but it's pretty clearly a grey market. The secondary transaction is legal. It's the failure to pay taxes that may be a violation of law. Would that mean that any transactions conducted by a business or person later found to have underpaid taxes were black market transactions? No, unless the transactions themselves were illegal.
That said, my distaste for the bubble-extending flippers is very great. I'm on your side.
That said, my distaste for the bubble-extending flippers is very great. I'm on your side.
Hoppes Love Potion
Member
I have not seen a single box of .22lr or .22 magnum on a retail shelf since Sandy Hook. If I walked into Walmart one day and they had $20 bricks of Federal bulk, I wouldn't become a flipper, but I might buy 10 bricks and be a hoarder. At least at that point, I would not be looking to buy any more for a long time, freeing up the supply lines for others.
Hoppes', thank you for illustrating exactly how shortages (another name for bubbles - think about it) can be self-sustaining for a long period of time. You see a shortage. So you alter your behavior in a way that contributes to the shortage. From your personal perspective, it's 100% rational. (When I find .22lr, I generally buy the limit, too.) But when everyone does the same thing, then everyone continues to experience the shortage, and everyone continues to buy all they can. And that creates a profit opportunity for speculative flippers, who further increase the odds that you won't see .22lr on shelves.
In many ways, it's a classic prisoner's dilemma problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma If we could all get together and agree to only buy what we plan to shoot in the next month, then the shortage would be over instantly. But coordinating action is essentially impossible. So we each behave with rational self-interest, and ultimately make ourselves worse off.
Eventually, people have spent all the money they want on .22lr. And the bubble pops on its own. But the bubble will pop faster if stores do some kind of rationing. When you can readily get a box, you won't feel the need to buy 30 boxes. So you won't. Shortage over.
If retailers had put meaningful rationing into place in January of this year, the shortage/bubble would have been short-lived. But they waited... some still haven't done it, some have finally done it just now.
In many ways, it's a classic prisoner's dilemma problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_dilemma If we could all get together and agree to only buy what we plan to shoot in the next month, then the shortage would be over instantly. But coordinating action is essentially impossible. So we each behave with rational self-interest, and ultimately make ourselves worse off.
Eventually, people have spent all the money they want on .22lr. And the bubble pops on its own. But the bubble will pop faster if stores do some kind of rationing. When you can readily get a box, you won't feel the need to buy 30 boxes. So you won't. Shortage over.
If retailers had put meaningful rationing into place in January of this year, the shortage/bubble would have been short-lived. But they waited... some still haven't done it, some have finally done it just now.
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