Academy has tightened limits on 22lr

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One thing I find interesting is the fact that high priced match ammo that normally sells in the neighborhood of $70.00 to $150.00 is still selling for $70.00 to $150.00 a brick.

These are approx. prices, give or take a dollar or two.
 
All I can say is I bought all my ammo when there was no shortage. I've been tempted many times to sell if for huge profit via GunBroker or the like but my conscience always stopped me. Lord knows I NEEDED the funds. In fact I sold or pawned all but one single firearm just to keep going. But... I wasn't about to sell my ammo at "pre-scalping" prices. Why should I? I still have it all except what I've shot or gifted to friends. Due to my "hoarding" I haven't done without, I've been able to help friends and never needed to buy at crazy-insane prices. Again though, I bought all mine "pre-panic" when it was plentiful and easy to get.
 
No! Its a "Black Market". Per wikies definition a gray market is legal.

A black market is an illegal business, plain and simple. And this is what it has turned into. Those that camp out daily and buy up all of the commodity, in this case ammo, with the sole intent of flipping it have turned it into a non reporting profitable business transaction.

If it was a person selling a box or 2 that's an entirely different deal, but this is no longer what is happening. The same people are using retail outlets as a supplier for their own personal gain, which I'll guess profit's are not reported as income. Further these scalpers/gougers in many cases do not have retail licenses to conduct business.
What you have are gun shops that have set up ammunition web sites to sell their stock at the super high prices we see today. They are hiding behind these fronts to keep their regular customers in the dark. because if they knew their customers would walk. That's the little dirty secret no one is talking about.

that person standing in line for those few boxes are not the problem.
 
What you have are gun shops that have set up ammunition web sites to sell their stock at the super high prices we see today. They are hiding behind these fronts to keep their regular customers in the dark. because if they knew their customers would walk. That's the little dirty secret no one is talking about.

that person standing in line for those few boxes are not the problem.
I strongly suspect you're right. I have no proof but I have a pretty decent understanding of human nature via my life experiences.
 
What you have are gun shops that have set up ammunition web sites to sell their stock at the super high prices we see today. They are hiding behind these fronts to keep their regular customers in the dark. because if they knew their customers would walk. That's the little dirty secret no one is talking about.

that person standing in line for those few boxes are not the problem.

And you have proof of this I spose?

The old retired men I see at the flea market I seriously doubt have a web sight to sell retail purchased ammo. How do I know it was purchased retail? Most of it still has the stickers on it.
 
The personality type that these "flippers" have baffles me. It's probably the same folks who apply for unemployment instead of applying for jobs, and these folks who get "hurt" at work and get a settlement from their employers insurance. System abusers. They could probably find/have a job in the same amount of time that they spend on these capers.


Disclaimer for all of the "easily offended":
Im not saying that nobody deserves unemployment or compensation if they're injured.

Fine bunch of generalized assumptions you have there. It would seem that you would have us believe that somebody who buys ammunition then turns around and sells it at a profit must be some kind of leech, sponging a living off of society by subsisting on welfare and fraudulent law suits. Couldn't possibly be, say, a father of three taking the opportunity to make an extra buck for his family.


As for all this debate over whether limiting sales does or does not "work"...it DOES work...for the BUSINESSES which impose the limits.

Contrary to popular belief, very few of these businesses are imposing limits for altruistic purposes. They're doing it simply because it's good business for the company. Limit sales and you increase the percentage of their customer base which can purchase at least SOME ammunition. Don't limit sales and only a much smaller percentage of their customer base will get the ammunition.

As a rule, they don't care about scalpers. They care about keeping their customers happy and doing things which make their customers think more highly of them. It's good advertisement when more customers have a chance of at least getting SOME ammunition as opposed to a select few. Happy customers are return customers...and good word of mouth advertisement for them.
 
Quote:
What you have are gun shops that have set up ammunition web sites to sell their stock at the super high prices we see today. They are hiding behind these fronts to keep their regular customers in the dark. because if they knew their customers would walk. That's the little dirty secret no one is talking about.

that person standing in line for those few boxes are not the problem.
And you have proof of this I spose?

The old retired men I see at the flea market I seriously doubt have a web sight to sell retail purchased ammo. How do I know it was purchased retail? Most of it still has the stickers on it.

Well there's a hell of a lot more people on the net than at your local flea market!
That being said I have a strong inclination that Queen of thunder is correct. The manufacturers are saying "hey we're producing umpteen million rounds a month" and the retailers are saying "we haven't seen 22lr in X amount of months" who's blowing smoke? I tend to think it's more of an issue at the retail, maybe distributor level. Holding large quantities back for internet sales(i.e. ghost accounts for Gunbroker/armslist/etc.) and sprinkling out a few bricks here and there for in store sales. To me it makes sense considering they can put a $65+ price tag on a brick then charge you $15 or more to ship it(I mention this because most LGS have a FedEx or UPS account) so they can bang you twice for each brick. The guys at the flea market are pretty well out classed by that kind of border line thievery.
 
Surely there's more profit to be made in other ventures than buying a couple bricks of .22LR and flipping them a couple times per week.
 
Double your money+ is not bad for a retail establishment.

I have no idea if this is actually happening. I have better things to do then trying to research this one.
 
And you have proof of this I spose?

The old retired men I see at the flea market I seriously doubt have a web sight to sell retail purchased ammo. How do I know it was purchased retail? Most of it still has the stickers on it.
My own research shows this and while out of town speaking with a shop owner he allude to this and the large number of startups starting in January as the reason for the reduction in supply to his shop and others.

I have to say that it does make sense. The amount of ammo being produced was basically a static number but very little ammo was reaching stores like walmart and Academy. Something had to have happened to the supply as so little was reaching the stores and the only logical answer was the creation by dealers,using your term of ghost accounts to profit from a run on Ammo and then add in those new independent internet startups and you then realize that the supply that was going to "X" number of resellers were now being distributed across "2X-3X" that number of resellers if not more.
To make it really simple the ammo supply pie went from a pre crisis pie of 8 slices to a beginning crisis pie of 21 slices of the ammo pie and as time passed the ammo pie was cut even thinner which we all saw in the large retail stores as empty shelves. It wasn't those waiting in line for ammo as there was seldom any ammo available for them to purchase.

The ammo simply disappeared from the regular resellers and ended up on gunbroker, websites set up by gun shops and new resellers taking advantage of the Dec shooting.

Where did the ammo go after it left Remington,Hornday,Federal and the other manufactures. When it left the plant where did it go? Where? As you and everyone else knows it was not making it to the shelves of the large retail stores like walmart or Academy.

A lot of blame was focused on those waiting in line and I can tell you this. They were not the problem. You could have been first in line every single delivery day for a month and not put together a case of 10 boxes. I know I tried really hard. I would be lucky to have 5 boxes of any caliber after waiting in line every Monday,Wednesday and Friday for a month at my local Academy. They weren't even getting full cases of ammo themselves. Yet I could go online at gunbroker and buy all the ammo I wanted in case lots. Explain that if you can.
 
If speculators are required to put in more effort to turn a profit (more trips to different stores), they'll do less of it, and more ammo will be on the shelves.
Rationing has never led to a stable supply in history. All it accomplishes is the diversion of a portion of the market to favored sectors that wouldn't normally have the means or desire to partake (whether it's diverting rubber for military tires, gasoline to emergency responders, or ammo to 'serial buyers'). Emergencies can make it a necessary evil, but it is never efficient for the market. We are the market; when it is inefficient, it inevitably hurts all of us by definition. And only we individuals can correctly determine our personal level of need for goods in the market.

??? You think the casual shooter who goes into the store to buy some .22 to go plinking with his son is more troubled by finding that he can only buy two boxes than if he finds that zero boxes are available???
What if he finds ammo available, but it's just expensive? He'll probably grudgingly buy it, rationalizing that the extra ten bucks isn't so bad since he only shoots a box every three months. Not compared to missing out on an afternoon with his son. The heavy shooter will either fall back on his reserves, shoot less, go bankrupt, or some combination. Without heavy shooters all clamoring for product at the same time along with all the new/panic buyers, prices quickly stabilize and fall. If the latter two groups sustain their demand, production/supply will eventually rise. Market cured.

When rationing is present, people are forced to meet their needs in small piecemeal bits. The insufficient quantity and unpredictable availability of these bits means a person has to have extra bits on hand to ensure they make it through the lean times. A massive incentive to find ways to accumulate bits faster than others arises, since such a situation means instant guaranteed profit. All the while, scarcity is still felt by all, fueling the hoarding compulsion. Eventually, it becomes a habit, and ingrained in the market. After getting up each Tuesday, every week, for a year, to buy a brick of 22LR at Walmart, who's to say that bored retiree worried about his ammo supply won't keep buying another brick each week for another month? Two months? Another year? Especially considering he probably doesn't have a business plan for managing his ammo holdings rationally. I don't anticipate a great "dumping of hoarded ammo at a loss" when peoples' taxes come due; but I do expect we'll begin see some enormous estate sales in a few years.

I would love to see a way to add up all the 22LR actually sold on Gunbroker each week. I have a theory; that the scalpers so many are blaming are but a teensy-tiny part of the market, and the overwhelming majority of 22LR is simply being stored, while at the same time more than ever is being shot up faster than ever.

That is one of the reasons that the stores impose limits. If more people come in to buy the limit, then the store has more chances to sell additional products.
Congratulations! You've nailed the reason why Walmart chooses to ration underpriced goods rather than respond to market forces (and let's not pretend that Walmart doesn't respond to market forces on every other item they sell by procuring it as cheaply as possible, and then selling it for a profit). This scam is an easy way to convert demand into multiplied customers instead of merely elevated individual purchases. And all the while the customers are convinced it's for their own benefit :rolleyes:

The panic would have long since passed if both shooters with stockpiles and opportunists had been priced-out of the market for a month or two after the AWB/UBC failed. Instead, we try to "spread the demand shock around" and end up with a self-sustaining chain reaction of survival instincts driving infinite demand.

TCB
 
Rationing has never led to a stable supply in history. All it accomplishes is the diversion of a portion of the market to favored sectors that wouldn't normally have the means or desire to partake (whether it's diverting rubber for military tires, gasoline to emergency responders, or ammo to 'serial buyers'). Emergencies can make it a necessary evil, but it is never efficient for the market. We are the market; when it is inefficient, it inevitably hurts all of us by definition. And only we individuals can correctly determine our personal level of need for goods in the market.


What if he finds ammo available, but it's just expensive? He'll probably grudgingly buy it, rationalizing that the extra ten bucks isn't so bad since he only shoots a box every three months. Not compared to missing out on an afternoon with his son. The heavy shooter will either fall back on his reserves, shoot less, go bankrupt, or some combination. Without heavy shooters all clamoring for product at the same time along with all the new/panic buyers, prices quickly stabilize and fall. If the latter two groups sustain their demand, production/supply will eventually rise. Market cured.

When rationing is present, people are forced to meet their needs in small piecemeal bits. The insufficient quantity and unpredictable availability of these bits means a person has to have extra bits on hand to ensure they make it through the lean times. A massive incentive to find ways to accumulate bits faster than others arises, since such a situation means instant guaranteed profit. All the while, scarcity is still felt by all, fueling the hoarding compulsion. Eventually, it becomes a habit, and ingrained in the market. After getting up each Tuesday, every week, for a year, to buy a brick of 22LR at Walmart, who's to say that bored retiree worried about his ammo supply won't keep buying another brick each week for another month? Two months? Another year? Especially considering he probably doesn't have a business plan for managing his ammo holdings rationally. I don't anticipate a great "dumping of hoarded ammo at a loss" when peoples' taxes come due; but I do expect we'll begin see some enormous estate sales in a few years.

I would love to see a way to add up all the 22LR actually sold on Gunbroker each week. I have a theory; that the scalpers so many are blaming are but a teensy-tiny part of the market, and the overwhelming majority of 22LR is simply being stored, while at the same time more than ever is being shot up faster than ever.


Congratulations! You've nailed the reason why Walmart chooses to ration underpriced goods rather than respond to market forces (and let's not pretend that Walmart doesn't respond to market forces on every other item they sell by procuring it as cheaply as possible, and then selling it for a profit). This scam is an easy way to convert demand into multiplied customers instead of merely elevated individual purchases. And all the while the customers are convinced it's for their own benefit :rolleyes:

The panic would have long since passed if both shooters with stockpiles and opportunists had been priced-out of the market for a month or two after the AWB/UBC failed. Instead, we try to "spread the demand shock around" and end up with a self-sustaining chain reaction of survival instincts driving infinite demand.

TCB
You are missing a very important point. There was nothing to buy. Nothing on the shelf. No ammo came off the delivery trucks. WalMart and other large retailers were not getting ammo and when they did it was not in case lots it would be a few boxes of this and that. You can't buy if they don't have any ammo to sell and they didn't have anything to sell.
 
You are missing a very important point. There was nothing to buy. Nothing on the shelf. No ammo came off the delivery trucks. WalMart and other large retailers were not getting ammo and when they did it was not in case lots it would be a few boxes of this and that. You can't buy if they don't have any ammo to sell and they didn't have anything to sell.

So just where are these dealers using "ghost acct's" getting their supply?

BTW the term "ghost acct" is not my phrase, it was coined by SlientScream to the best of my knowledge.

A lot of blame was focused on those waiting in line and I can tell you this. They were not the problem. You could have been first in line every single delivery day for a month and not put together a case of 10 boxes. I know I tried really hard. I would be lucky to have 5 boxes of any caliber after waiting in line every Monday,Wednesday and Friday for a month at my local Academy. They weren't even getting full cases of ammo themselves. Yet I could go online at gunbroker and buy all the ammo I wanted in case lots. Explain that if you can.

I see you haven't attended any flea markets or gun shows here in the Midwest where there are bricks of .22's available for anywhere from $80.00 to $125.00. No sales tax collected either. And much of it still having the stores sticker on it.
 
jcwit ....And much of it still having the stores sticker on it.
Which means it isn't likely to have been bought at a WalMart, Cabelas, Academy or other large retailer in recent history.............they haven't used price stickers in years. If you see a box of ammo with a WalMart sticker.....it came out of someone stash, not direct from the store shelf.
 
Which means it isn't likely to have been bought at a WalMart, Cabelas, Academy or other large retailer in recent history.............they haven't used price stickers in years. If you see a box of ammo with a WalMart sticker.....it came out of someone stash, not direct from the store shelf.

For your reading pleasure regarding stickers, and I did not claim they were "price" stickers, only stickers.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-727017.html
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1501202
http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-359156.html
http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=40854

I could post many many more but I think might suffice.
 
I went to four WalMarts during my lunch break today:
Lucas- had sixteen boxes of CCI MiniMags 100's
Allen- had eight boxes of Winchester Powerpoint 100's
Plano Spring Creek/Coit- had eighteen boxes of CCI MiniMags 100's
Plano Spring Creek/75- didn't have jack squat for rimfire.

And yes, I bought the limit at each.:neener:


I wonder more about the personality type of those who whine, bitch and moan about someone else finding ammunition. Whether they choose to shoot it, hoard it or resell it for a profit is none of YOUR business. Don't like someone else buying the three box limit at Walmart and reselling it? Then get there before they do and stop the incessant internet whining!

Those "flippers" are engaging in the most American of all opportunities.....it's called capitalism. How on God's green earth you could attempt to correlate an opportunistic capitalist as a system abuser in the same ilk as those who apply for unemployment is beyond all logic.

You see those who get to WalMart, buy their three boxes and resell for market price as no different than those who choose not to find a job or file undeserving insurance claims.........sorry but that doesn't make any sense.
This is where we differ.....

I see the flippers as opportunists....taking advantage of the law of supply and demand. Bravo to them. If you want rationing or price controls you would love Cuba or Venezuela.

I see whiners the same as entitled freeloaders......in your words those who file undeserved insurance claims or are too lazy to seek work......ie those who demand others provide for them.

It's always someone else's fault.....whiners blame our government, foreign governments, the UN, Obama, WalMart, flippers, hoarders, gougers, resellers, ammunition companies, Hillary Clinton and thousands of others.

Want to drive the flippers out of business?
Plan ahead, be prepared.
If these "capitalists" were real capitalists and had jobs instead of collecting unemployment or bogus disability they would not be standing outside waiting for stores to open to hoard ammo
 
They would in states that require it.
In Texas they would pay as much as 8.25% sales tax on the purchase.




Seriously? What makes you thinl ammo purhase at WalMart are tax exempt?:scrutiny:





If reading the weekly "OMG peoples are gouging, hoarding and reselling ammunition and I'm so jealous" thread on THR makes me an insider.....then yes.
I AM a licensed gun dealer if you couldn't figure that out from my sigline......I'm in the business of flipping anything I can get my hands on.;)






It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know a BS story when you read one.
I hate BS stories as much as whiners.;)
It is your style of cut throat gluttonous money grubbing goldman and sachs way of doing business that has driven big industry bankrupt or to other countries.
 
There seems to be a regional facet to the shortage. I read that this or that store has "lots on the shelf", but I never see any. One gun shop continues to sell recycled Federal bulk packs from Walmart which tend to be rather obvious (I believe only Walmat sells 550 count boxes). It is what turned me off even going there any more. $50... you crazy? The other side of the coin is that at least they have some and you aren't meeting someone at McDonalds to buy 22 ammo.
 
It is probably due to the upcoming Black Friday madness and their desire to try to make sure people at least get something for their effort.
 
It is probably due to the upcoming Black Friday madness and their desire to try to make sure people at least get something for their effort.

Oooohhhh...good one. Forgot all about that.

Probably because I don't get too involved in Black Friday stuff. More my wife's providence than mine.
 
More power to those that are hoarding and flipping ammo. People that hoard usually don't consume what they are hoarding and eventually they pass on and some lucky person will end up with a bunch of ammo either free or very cheap. The flippers will eventually start to lose profit so they'll go by the wayside, that is if people stop paying ridiculous prices to them. I don't even bother looking for .22lr anymore. I may even sell my .22's and forget about it altogether.


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People are free to flip ammo [even at absurd prices]. If someone is foolish enough to buy from them [when they CAN be patient and eventually find it for a normal price], then that's their deal.

But I will NOT buy from the flipper. I'll figure out another hobby to get into until I can find ammo at a resonable price. Fortunately, I have enough where I'm not desperate.
 
For 20 yds pellets work just as good for squirrels and match pellets with a good PCP Rifle can be more accurate than most 22LR and at 1/2 cost or less. I see no down side except it doesn't go bang! if that's a downside.
finale-match-pistol_11.jpg
 
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