Accidental Discharge Experience

[GregGry]

How long does it take you to chamber the round if you need it, maybe a second? Then you are in business."

Except when you attempt to do that under stress its going to take longer then you think, and your introuducing the chance for yet another thing to go wrong (failure to feed/pickup a round out of the mag. A gun with a round in the chamber and a competent person is safer then a gun with no round in the chamber and a incompetent person. The only real reason a person would be ok carrying the pipe empty is if they don't trust their gun or themselves. Both of which are pretty serious problems if you want to be able to protect yourself.

 

[Kind of Blued]

I just don't know of any other way to prevent this from being a possibility again.

Check them!

When you take a gun out of your safe, check it. Period. It doesn't matter if you haven't owned a round of ammo for ten years. Check it.

When your friend hands you a gun and says "it's unloaded", check it.

When an employee at a gun shop checks a gun to make sure it's unloaded, then hands it to you, check it.

If you check it and can't tell, safely carry it to a brighter area, or use a flashlight to check it.

People (men especially, myself included) sometimes like to "know" things when they don't actually know them. There is no shame in reading assembly/disassembly directions, asking for navigational help, following overly-cautious rules, etc. just because you didn't make them up.

I won't add anything to the "chambered or not" debate except that if you can't safely carry a loaded gun, you should reconsider carrying a gun in the first place.

 

[XavierBreath]

You have just conditioned yourself to unloaded guns - not the best gun training...

Wise words.

The thing to do is condition yourself to all guns being loaded until you, personally, have opened the chamber and checked the condition of the weapon. Check the chamber of every gun you pick up. Every time. If it leaves your hands and is returned to you, check it again. The only way to know a gun is unloaded is to check it.

That is why Rule One is "All guns are always loaded," not "Treat all guns as if they were loaded."

Glad to hear you are OK except for your pride. I don't mean to harp on you, it's good that you are owning up to your ND, but think about your planned intervention. Does an unloaded chamber make you more or less susceptible to a ND if you still pick up a gun and pull the trigger? Believing the chamber is empty is not the same as making certain it is. Believing the gun is loaded is the one way to force you to insure that it is not. I hope that makes sense.

Jeff Cooper's thoughts on Rule One:

Rule 1: All guns are always loaded.

There are no exceptions. Do not pretend that this is true. Some people and organizations take this rule and weaken it; e.g. "Treat all guns as if they were loaded." Unfortunately, the "as if" compromises the directness of the statement by implying that they are unloaded, but we will treat them as though they are loaded. No good! Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.

All guns are always loaded - period!

This must be your mind-set. If someone hands you a firearm and says, "Don't worry, it's not loaded," you do not dare believe him. You need not be impolite, but check it yourself. Remember, there are no accidents, only negligent acts. Check it. Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it was loaded!"

 

[chuckusaret]

I have a round chambered at all times in my CC Springfield XD40 sub compact and I treat the weapon as I do all weapons as being loaded. I never put my finger on the trigger unless it is to fire the gun.

 

[GregGry]

I just don't buy that you have to have one chambered at all times or you will die. Man, that's paranoia gone a little too far. Like I said, what does it take, 1 second to chamber a round? It takes longer than that just to get to the concealed weapon.

During simunition training I was pratically thrown to the wolves. I had a sudden assault where within a split second a disturbed man turned into a man shooting you. No warning, nothing but an absolute sudden assault. I have my hand on my sim gun when entering the area, and I still got shot 3 to 4 times before I was able to get my pistol out and shoot. I was able to see a video of myself and everyone else in the class, and I noticed the second the guy produced his gun up everyone jumped a bit (A startle response). Then training kicked in and pretty much everyon was able to draw and shoot.

Had I gone into a situation like that with the pipe empty, I would have been shot at alteast 5 to 6 times, and I would have had to pray that my gun didn't have a fail to feed. Seconds count. When you need your gun you need your gun. You don't need to be worrying about making your gun "functional" during the middle of a firefight. Its bad enough to have a gun take a crap when your using it, but to carry a gun with the idea of using it for self defense, yet you make it non functional as you carry it, is foolish.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I really appreciate all the feedback, thank you all. It isn't like I'm new to guns, I've been around them a very long time and I have a pretty good collection going. I am very familiar with the "rules" and do for the most part follow them. When I put this thread up, it had only been about 15 minutes since the ND, and I was still quite a bit discouraged by my mishandling. I've calmed down quite a bit now. I'm going to bring this puppy out to the range in the morning and get familiar with it. That should help. That and the constant nagging in the back of my mind.

 

[wally]

This is a classic Negligent Discharge, not an Accident.

My rule is loaded guns are always stored in holsters either in the safe or when carried. Range guns are only chambered on the firing line. Every gun is checked to verify chamber empty as the first step in any handling.

In my shooting career I've had two incidents, both occurred on the firing line.

First was a "hang fire" where the gun fired as I was moving my hand up to do "tap-rack-bang" after a "click". No issues as the gun was pointed safely down range at the time.

Second was a 1911 hammer follow discharge when loading the first round from the magazine. The gun has since been repaired. Again it was pointed at the target at the time so other than nearly causing me to soil my pants, no harm.

The rules work if you heed them!

--wally.

 

[JoeShmoe]

GregGry

That is a great example. Most people have no idea of what a sudden act of violence looks like. It most likely will be quick, unexpected, and vicious. To leave an empty chamber is dangerous.

 

[rainbowbob]

...

1 second to chamber a round? It takes longer than that just to get to the concealed weapon...

That just reinforces the argument for carrying one chambered. Think about it...If an attacker can get to you from 20 feet away in less than two seconds, and it takes let's say 1.5 seconds get the gun into position - you don't HAVE another second to rack the slide. Add to that the fact that he is now grabbing at your gun - perhaps making it impossible to rack one.

Personally, I would not carry an SD fiream that didn't go bang as soon as I could get it pointed in the right direction.

If I did carry a bottom-feeder it would have one chambered with the safety off.

My solution is to carry a revolver.

And my solution to the OP's problem is to ALWAYS (knock on wood!) index my trigger finger along the barrel unless and until I am ready to put a hole in something.

 

[MT GUNNY]

My First and only AD happened with a SKS, I just installed a New Trigger Group For it. At the Range I Locked in a 30 Rd Mag and Luckily I was Pointing the rifle in a safe Direction, When I unlocked the Bolt and Let it Fall little did I know the Sear was stuck in the Fire Position, 30 rds of Rock and Roll went down Range in about 5 seconds, I was able to Control the Surprise Automatic fire.

Ive had One ND, Short story Shorter I was Handling a Firearm while distracted!!

That being Known I still and will always Carry with a Round Chambered.

 

[Grassman]

If you do "get thrown to the wolves" in an assault, you are prolly dead, if they use deadly force. Having one chambered won't matter.

 

[goldie]

i saw a guy at the range putting his rifle back in the rack during a cease fire & it went off as it was facing up.he only had one hand on the forearm, i dont know how it went off,even though it was loaded. he's lucky he didnt take his head off.range officers went crazy, they shut down the range for 1/2 hour; total kaos.....

 

[rainbowbob]

...if they use deadly force...Having one chambered won't matter.

Based on that reasoning, there is no point in carrying a SD weapon at all.

 

[GregGry]

If you do "get thrown to the wolves" in an assault, you are prolly dead, if they use deadly force. Having one chambered won't matter.

You are not dead until your heart stops, you go black, and you can no longer function. With a comment like this it seems you would be capable of just giving up if you got shot in a gunfight. Such a mentality is a danger to your life and to anyone that trusts you for protection. I don't care if I have 6 holes in my chest and I am 2 seconds from dying, I am going to be fighting until my last breath.

In my training there were people that never fired a return shot after being shot in the sudden assault. They just gave up, and said "well I thought I was dead". I have never heard a ass chewing so bad in my life. It sounds to me like you carry a gun without the ability or the will power to use it. Its a crutch that makes you feel better, but when SHTF you couldn't be relied on in the least to use it. Let alone if you get a flesh wound in the process.

 

[longdayjake]

If the gun is in a holster that covers the trigger then it can be chambered safely. If not then the trigger is exposed and simply reaching for it to pull it out is unsafe regardless of safety mechanisms. If you just put it in your truck in the glove compartment or whatever then unchambered is the way to go but if it is in a holster then you are okay. This advice stems from law enforcement training so take it as you will. My reasoning is that if you have time to reach over, open your glove compartment, and safely pull out your gun then you have time to rack the slide as well.

 

[Boba Fett]

I just don't buy that you have to have one chambered at all times or you will die. Man, that's paranoia gone a little too far. Like I said, what does it take, 1 second to chamber a round? It takes longer than that just to get to the concealed weapon.

I will direct you to the fact that the OP was talking about a gun he had for conceal carry.

If the gun is in your home, yes, you will likely have time to chamber a round. Guns in the home have many variables that warrant not keeping one in the pipe, though most of those variables can be solved with a quick access gun safe.

If you are carrying however, keep one in the pipe, have a good holster even if your gun does have a safety, and pray you never have to use it but know that if you do, you won't be found dead with your hand wrapped around the slide because you were too foolish to carry one in the pipe

Simple Question:
THE POLICE CARRY ONE IN THE PIPE. WHY DO YOU THINK YOUR REACTION TIME OR CIRCUMSTANCES WILL BE BETTER THAN THEIRS?
Every time I ask this, none of the "don't carry with one in the pipe" crowd answers. Will today be the day? Probably not.


ThrottleJockey

...I was still quite a bit discouraged by my mishandling. I've calmed down quite a bit now. I'm going to bring this puppy out to the range in the morning and get familiar with it. That should help. That and the constant nagging in the back of my mind.

Don't be discouraged fellow THR member! We are here for you and you've just said one of the most important things when dealing with a new gun: "get familiar with it." Don't beat yourself up; you can't change what has happened, but you can make sure it doesn't happen again. You were lucky and God was looking out for you and your family today. And you have a good life lesson sort of story to tell people. Enjoy your new gun at the range and tattoo the gun safety commandments on your shooting hand and all will be well

 

[Sharpie1]

I always have all of my home defense guns fully loaded and chambered.

I want to be able to have them ready to go immediately, if needed. In fact, we have a rule in my house. No guns are "allowed" to be out in the open, or as I call them, "in service" without being fully stoked and chambered. This is because I don't want myself or my wife to go grab one in an emergency and have to wonder whether or not it is ready to be used.

That being said, I would not tell anyone else that they should do it this way - and that if they refused to do so that it would be "wrong". Likewise, I do not want anyone else telling me that my way is inferior to theirs - especially when the reasons they provide to support their opinion are totally without merit.

To say "how long does it take to chamber a round?" -- as if it is always the simplest and most convenient thing in the world to do, is folly.

It might not be so easy to chamber a round if you realize that you need your gun only after you've been stabbed. Likewise, it might not be easy to chamber a round if you are sitting at a red light at night and someone breaks the car window 6 inches from your face, reaches in and grabs your neck and then tries to rob, carjack or murder you.

Also, the way you handle your firearm should not differ one iota - whether it is chambered or not. It shouldn't make one bit of difference. If you cannot be safe with a firearm unless it is unchambered, then you cannot be safe with a firearm. Period.

I know what I just said might be considered "terse", but this is serious stuff. The only practical way to address issues with ignorance and carelessness (unfamiliarity) with a firearm is to both seek training and to spend an obscene amount of time practicing.

I hope this helps. Be safe. You might not get another second chance.

 

[Clifford]

I have been shooting for 25 years, and 2 years ago it finally happened. I had my first and hopefully last A.D. Late one night just before bed i remembered that a coworker wanted to look at my 1911. He was looking to buy a handgun and wanted to get a look at my .45 and compare it to another coworkers glock. The 1911 is not my truck gun so before i put it in my truck i cleared it. Well normally i will drop the mag, rack the slide to look in the chamber, and dryfire in a safe direction. Instead i racked the slide, dropped the formerly full magazine and sent one of my 200 grn hornaday XTP's into my basketball backboard at about 980 fps. My wife hearing this came outside to find out what happened. Well i told her my story then she asked "so... You pulled the trigger and it went off?". I replied yes then she said "well i guess it wasnt an accident was it?" she was correct it wasnt an accident it was carelessness on my part and i could have killed someone. Looking back i remember seeing a round go into battery, that was the problem i saw it and wasnt thinking about the task at hand. Whatever way you store and carry your guns is up to you, just dont let your actions become involuntary, think about them.

 

[wyocarp]

All is well that ends well. Learn and move on.

It is valuable to have a routine when picking up firearms which starts with no finger in trigger area.

 

[Clifford]

Rainbowbob has a good point if you cant carry cocked and locked buy a revolver.

 

[psyopspec]

All my defensive weapons stay loaded. If they are, it's easier to treat them that way; it becomes their "default status."

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

It's a miserable feeling and thankfully nobody was hurt other than your ego. You'll get over it, learn from it, and be a safer gun handler for it.
To each his own but I'd work on being comfortable carrying with a round chambered. It's true it doesn't take long to chamber a round at all, but it's also true that a lot of attacks are fast, up close, and violent. Betting that you'll have both your arms free, not pushing someone off you or rolling on the ground is a large assumption that could cost you everything. Just remember, it's always hot and ready to go so you never ever put your finger on that trigger unless you are ready to fire, or if you are going to dry fire, after you've removed ammo from the room and checked the chamber about 37 times.

 

[model of 1905]

This is a classic Negligent Discharge, not an Accident.

My rule is loaded guns are always stored in holsters either in the safe or when carried. Range guns are only chambered on the firing line. Every gun is checked to verify chamber empty as the first step in any handling.

My EDC is always loaded with one in the chamber. When its not on my belt, it is still holstered. There are four basic rules for redundant purposes so that even if you break one you still can avoid catastrophe. You managed to do that but the fact remains that you had a lapse in following safety rules. Nobody is perfect but don't tempt Mr. Murphy. Glad nobody was hurt and hearing about what happened to you further enforces in my mind that I can never let my guard down. Thanks for sharing it with us.

 

[GRIZ22]

People who have UIDs (NDs, ADs, or whatever you want to call them) are like people who dump motorcycles; there are those who have and those that are going to. Handle guns often enough are you are steadily increasing the possibility of having one. that's why safe direction is rule #2.

If anyone wants to be critical even the "pros" have them but usually don't talk about them (a mistake I believe as one can learn from another's errors according to Bismarck). Skeeter Skelton once wrote an entire column devoted to tales of guns that went off when he really didn't want them to.

Any UID I've had was saved from catastrophe by safe direction.

 

[Dark_Harvest]

No such thing as an "accidental discharge." There are only "intentional" and "negligent" discharges.

RugerBob said "Its either loaded or its not."


NOT TRUE. Jeff Cooper articulated 4 rules. 4, not 3. Stick with all 4 of them.

It's very good you were able to learn from this experience with no serious issues, but please take all 4 rules to heart.