ACOG's for the US Army

[HorseSoldier]

A brief response... windage click adjustments are a desireable feature because they allow you to make a precise adjustment based on windage estimation and then return to your previous zero.

Which has zero to do with combat marksmanship and everything to do with Camp Perry NRA fun and games.

A squad designated marksman could easily be required to make a 600 meter shot with a service rifle equipped with optics.

That's about the deep end of the pool for an SDM, and not a shot that's being made much at all in the real world, due to acquisition and PID issues.

It is SO easy to simply add a few tick marks... and yet Trijicon apparently decided it would be too much.

Again, your reticle hashmarks provide a down and dirty way to estimate favoring right or left since they're torso width at any given range.

Every shooter on the line with an ACOG I spoke to wished there were such a feature. We were battling 5-10 mph crosswinds at 500-600 meters. In combat, you dont get sighters...

You also don't get time to make windage click adjustments to your weapon and you also don't get 5-600 meter targets except maybe once in a blue moon. Again, wind calls and combat shooting are not even related creatures.

 

[kBob]

There was an article in the September-December 1999 INFANTRY (page 23)that extolled the virtues of the Day Optical Scope, specifically NSN 1240-010412-6608, Telescope, Model TAO1M4A1. You would call this the ACOG.

The Article was by a LTC M. R. Harris USA (R)

The article discussed ranges and types of engagement and targets for M-16>=A2/M4series rifles and their accuracy with M855 ammunition.

Of interest was the note that the DOS did not improve basic marksmanship skills of Unqualified, Marksmen or Sharpshooter qualified soldiers but allowed an Expert Qualified shooter to expand his range beyound the 300 meter limit the others seem limited to with iron sights (he also points out that in real combat actual effective ranges generally drop to 200 meters for the non experts)

He goes on to point out the advantagees of the system for issue to small unit Non COmmissioned officers and designated marks men and the use of designated marksman to allow the unit to better perfdorm its duties.

His statement "One or two DOS-equipped sharpshooters per squad would give the infantry the greatest return on the investment in combat capability." is of great interest.

He seems to express the same concerns that some here have, that being that for the average Snuffy/Joe the DOS is not a device any more useful than your typical red dot scope or sight system. He wanted the ACOG issued ONLY to some NCOs and squad designated marksmen.

I wanted one after reading the article and would like to have had one when I was playing Infantryman. Unfortunately I did not and do not have a flat top AR system nor plan to purchase one.

It was pointed out that the "low" power optics ( from 3 to 4 power in the tests) did give the designated sharp shooter an improved ability to see a target, evaluate it and engage it, especially when the range finding reticle was used.

Also noted was that the scopes better light gathering ability allowed telling shots to be in early morning or later in the evening when the un assited shooter with iron sights could not see a target.

The importance of the tritium sight element was expressed as ita sbility to be used in enegaging muzzle flashes ( recall that the AN/PVS-14 mini scope was not in general issue in 1999 and most units still depended on the older huge and heavy AN/PVS-4, except Rangers and Airborne and SOCOM)

Although I do not see where he covered the CQB shooting with the ACOG I would pointout that in the past "Quick Kill" type training was used for enaging at 25 meters and closer and was at one point part of annual qualification for Infantrymen.

Issue here is that the ACOG had a NSN at least as early as 1999.

-Bob Hollingsworth

 

[chieftain]

You also don't get time to make windage click adjustments to your weapon and you also don't get 5-600 meter targets except maybe once in a blue moon. Again, wind calls and combat shooting are not even related creatures.

BINGO! Exactly right. It is one of the fundamental differences between the "games" and the real deal.

It is that combat thing. I carried a M14 for most of my two tours in Vietnam with the 3rd Marine Division.

I don't think I changed my sights once in all that time. Didn't need to.

It wouldn't change with an optic. Or whether one was in Iraq or A-Stan.

You also don't get time to make windage click adjustments to your weapon and you also don't get 5-600 meter targets except maybe once in a blue moon. Again, wind calls and combat shooting are not even related creatures.

Absolutely right. Don’t confuse folks with the facts.

Their action shooting sport/game is the cat’s meow, and “Proves” XYZ. Are there some points that can be used, of course. But never begin to think that any sport/game can be used to practice for combat. Useful, yes. But it ain’t the same. In competition your main mission is speed, low or high score, depending etc. In combat there are only two “things”.. Accomplish the mission, stay alive. Please note, score or time is not included. History has repeatedly proven that combat is hard on people and equipment and there are no style points, or “procedural” errors. Staying alive is the gold.

In Fallujah the Brass thought the Marine grunts were executing the ragheads. Upon investigation, the Brass learned that the Corps had issued optical sights to the average Marine grunt. That allowed the grunts to make those head shots. In the Marine corps the name for a designated Marksman is, “MARINE”. We got away from traditional marksmanship training for a short while. Many folks insisted it was no longer relevant. Both the Commandant and I don’t think so.

I have made an observation, that may be self serving. It is that those who have actually faced real combat, don’t often compete well in the action shooting sports. That real life thing tends to slow one down. Combat is not about blinding speed, or A zone shots. Good enough is the master of perfect in combat.

Remember when you meet the elephant , the elephant meets you. What follows will rarely go the way you planned, or want it to. Such is the nature of REAL Firefights. That includes military actions, and much smaller intense personal self defense fights in and on the streets of America.

I hope every American trooper of all our services has the equipment he/she needs to stay alive and fight the fight.

God Bless them all.

Go figure.

Fred