My wife's sister had a bad experience in HOUSTON (no freakin' surprise) tonight. Apparently she was on a bus and as she was getting off at a stop when right in front of her in BROAD DAYLIGHT two guys jumped another guy and used a knife to slit his throat before searching his pockets for stuff to steal. She's pretty shaken about it and my wife wants her to start carrying something (I insisted as well). She's the literal stereotype of the "weapons are evil college girl". (She once hid my pocket knife because she didn't want me to take it inside a mall). So, a handgun is pretty much out of the question and probably a knife as well. She used to do judo, but some type of supplement would help. What's the most effective out there and what costs/hassle come along with it? Mace? Tazers? Collapsible baton? Any experiences/reviews/recommendations anyone cares to share?
Advice Needed: Non-Firearm Carry for a girl
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Send her past Marc MacYoung's site -- www.nononsenseselfdefense.com
If you've never read it yourself, do so. She needs to see the pages on the criminal mindset, fringe areas, high-risk behaviors, the five stages of violent crime, and probably just about everything else on there. It'll give her some ideas for various tools she might want to consider carrying with her, but mostly it will help her develop an awareness of what dangerous behavior looks like and how to avoid being caught up in it.
If she's not willing to invest a couple of hours reading up on that kind of thing, don't push it and forget about looking for something for her to carry. There's no magic item she can carry that will make up for an uninformed mind and an unwillingness to fight back.
pax
If you've never read it yourself, do so. She needs to see the pages on the criminal mindset, fringe areas, high-risk behaviors, the five stages of violent crime, and probably just about everything else on there. It'll give her some ideas for various tools she might want to consider carrying with her, but mostly it will help her develop an awareness of what dangerous behavior looks like and how to avoid being caught up in it.
If she's not willing to invest a couple of hours reading up on that kind of thing, don't push it and forget about looking for something for her to carry. There's no magic item she can carry that will make up for an uninformed mind and an unwillingness to fight back.
pax
kayl
Member
The ProTek Key looks interesting; I've heard good things. I'm ordering one for my fiancee.
Pax is dead on target.
There is a very small window of opportunity while this trauma is fresh in her mind to get her to wake up, but you can't rub her face in it. Send her to "The Animal"'s site. Let her read and take in what she can. If she can change her mindset then she may be trainable.
Find out when SouthNarc is going to have his next class and let her know. As a crash course it's a great start.
Pepper spray takes little training, but some.
A baton takes more training and can be considered use of deadly force. You can't hide the deadly force potential of a baton because the training will cover it. If she can't handle that then she shouldn't carry it.
Tazer is expensive, but has little training requirement and has good effectiveness, but she saw 2 guys attack the one so what does she do when she has to deal with 2 murders?
There is a very small window of opportunity while this trauma is fresh in her mind to get her to wake up, but you can't rub her face in it. Send her to "The Animal"'s site. Let her read and take in what she can. If she can change her mindset then she may be trainable.
Find out when SouthNarc is going to have his next class and let her know. As a crash course it's a great start.
Pepper spray takes little training, but some.
A baton takes more training and can be considered use of deadly force. You can't hide the deadly force potential of a baton because the training will cover it. If she can't handle that then she shouldn't carry it.
Tazer is expensive, but has little training requirement and has good effectiveness, but she saw 2 guys attack the one so what does she do when she has to deal with 2 murders?
crofrog
Member
Your focus should 100% on her mindset. Not a single tool is worth a damn if she's not willing to avoid, deter, desclate, and kill.
Geronimo45
Member
Funny how folks come to this forum looking for a non-firearm weapon...
but I agree with previous posters. Mindset is nearly everything - the weapon means nothing without the mindset (story in this forum, I think, where a guy wrestled a shotgun away from a homeowner then shot him with it... the consensus seemed to be that the homeowner wasn't willing to take the shot - mindset again).
The right mindset and a good weapon can go very far... if she's not willing to do that, get her a bulletproof vest with a stab-resistant insert. And pray regularly.
but I agree with previous posters. Mindset is nearly everything - the weapon means nothing without the mindset (story in this forum, I think, where a guy wrestled a shotgun away from a homeowner then shot him with it... the consensus seemed to be that the homeowner wasn't willing to take the shot - mindset again).
The right mindset and a good weapon can go very far... if she's not willing to do that, get her a bulletproof vest with a stab-resistant insert. And pray regularly.
Non-Firearm
I am in a somewhat similar situation with my fiance while she is by no means anti gun she is not comfortable enough with firearms yet to carry. I am considering the Kimber Guardian Angel for her. We also live in Houston and despite the police reports have noticed among our peers rising crime.
http://www.life-act.com/guardianangel.php
I am in a somewhat similar situation with my fiance while she is by no means anti gun she is not comfortable enough with firearms yet to carry. I am considering the Kimber Guardian Angel for her. We also live in Houston and despite the police reports have noticed among our peers rising crime.
http://www.life-act.com/guardianangel.php
crofrog
Member
What advantage does the guardian angle offer over regular sprays.
Because looking at it I see a lot of disadvantages.
Because looking at it I see a lot of disadvantages.
I'm going to leave that up to the wife to actually get her to "change her mindset" however impossible that seems to do to people. I just need some info on non-firearm SD tools. Having something is better than nothing. I'll make sure to preach a tool is nothing until you learn to use it, but at least it's a push in the right direction. A combination of the protek key and guardian angel would seem effective, spray and if the threat comes closer slash.
crofrog
Member
i'm not sure if that's true. With out mindset a tool is useless, and the kimber thing is still a waste of time and money compared to any other OC can out there.
sm
member
One cannot change people, places or things - only person that can change someone is someone willing to change themselves.
Sadly, this means one must hit a bottom, tragic if the bottom hit, is the last act of life on earth.
Less tragic, is hitting a bottom due to a event in which another goes through an event.
In this original post, this sister , just had a "bottom" handed to her on a silver platter at the expense of another. Life is Life and is cold and hard.
Sister at this point - while I agree needs mindset, and to visit sites links and all, probably really needs to sit down and "debrief". She went through a trauma herself.
She is most likely all confused, hurt, scared and angry. My thoughts run to this Sister being "de-briefed" and allowed to get herself more stable; allowing her to be more clear headed, and able to digest any of the links, sites, and suggestions recommended.
I do not care if whom she "de-briefs" with is a Health Professional, Female LEO, Clergy, or best friend - only that it be someone she can be true to herself with, brutally honest with, has confidence with innermost feelings, and these shared moments, kept private and respected.
Acceptance is key.
As soon as she accepts what she witnessed , this whole traumatic experience, the better she can move in a direction and use another's bottom to improve herself.
Steve
Sadly, this means one must hit a bottom, tragic if the bottom hit, is the last act of life on earth.
Less tragic, is hitting a bottom due to a event in which another goes through an event.
In this original post, this sister , just had a "bottom" handed to her on a silver platter at the expense of another. Life is Life and is cold and hard.
Sister at this point - while I agree needs mindset, and to visit sites links and all, probably really needs to sit down and "debrief". She went through a trauma herself.
She is most likely all confused, hurt, scared and angry. My thoughts run to this Sister being "de-briefed" and allowed to get herself more stable; allowing her to be more clear headed, and able to digest any of the links, sites, and suggestions recommended.
I do not care if whom she "de-briefs" with is a Health Professional, Female LEO, Clergy, or best friend - only that it be someone she can be true to herself with, brutally honest with, has confidence with innermost feelings, and these shared moments, kept private and respected.
Acceptance is key.
As soon as she accepts what she witnessed , this whole traumatic experience, the better she can move in a direction and use another's bottom to improve herself.
Steve
All right, let's talk about gadgets, then.
The ProTek Key looks silly and relatively useless. I say this as someone who has, on her keychain, a kubotan -- which is also silly and relatively useless, but helps me avoid losing my keys. (Yeah, yeah, I've had the classes in using a short baton, and know the pressure points. Does she know where the pressure points are and where to strike? No? Then mark that one down as relatively useless for her, too.)
The advantage of keychain gadgets is that they are more likely to be in your hand when attacked than are most other types of gadgets. The disadvantage (which farrrrr outweighs that advantage) is that these things pretty well require you to go hands-on with the bad guy. A woman's best defense is staying outside of grabbing distance from a stranger in the first place. If she does get grabbed, then that keychain gadget might do some good ... if she actually has it in her hand rather than in the bottom of her purse to be dug out when she gets to the car, if she's already holding it in the correct orientation (she won't be), and if the hand in which she's holding it is able to move enough to strike effectively. Oh, and if she knows where to strike with it. Flailing away at her attacker is good if that's all she knows how to do, but if it stops him it will only be because he didn't like the noise & attention she was drawing, not because her activity threatened his ability to do what he wanted with her.
Oh, and even though you didn't want to talk about mindset, mindset is far more critical with striking/poking implements than you would think. These little half-effective gadgets are completely useless if they are in the hands of someone who "doesn't want to hurt" her attacker. You know that old saw about taken away and used against her? The attacker won't bother with that. He'll take it away, hurl it into the bushes, and beat the crap out of her with his bare hands. The reason these things don't get used against victims is because they don't work.
Next up: OC spray.
OC is concentrated heat from a hot-pepper plant. It is an oleoresin, which means it sticks to the skin and cannot be simply rubbed away, and it is an irritant, which means that the reaction does not rely upon allergies or sensitivities. Only about 1 person in about 10,000 doesn't really react to the stuff, so it can be an effective mid range defense tool.
If OC gets into or near your eyes, your eyes will immediately slam shut and begin watering profusely; getting them open again is NOT going to happen just by willing it so, but you can reach up and pry one eye open with your hand if you keep your wits about you. Snot production kicks into high gear. The hands usually drop whatever they're holding, and reach for the face in a reflexive motion. The skin will burn like a bad sunburn or worse. If the OC gets down into the airways, breathing burns like fire and the person will have the sensation that they are choking or suffocating (they won't be, unless they are among the truly miniscule portion of the population who experiences an anaphylactic allergic reaction to the stuff).
All of this tends to stop the attack. That's the good news. The bad news is that the reactions take up to 5 seconds to begin, and a lot of very bad and very permanent things can happen during that 5 seconds. Furthermore, if the attacker knows the victim is armed with pepper spray, there are certain specific things he can do to protect himself from the spray, or to mentally prep himself to fight through the reaction. Pepper spray does not make a good "stop or I'll use this" type of deterrent for that reason. (And any ex-con has very likely been sprayed before, knows what it'll do to him, and knows he can fight through it if he must; warning him that you are about to use OC spray just preps him for a fight.)
You can get OC in three basic spray patterns: a fog, a stream, and a foam.
The foam was intended for use inside correctional facilities and other places where contaminating the air was a concern. I'm aware of at least two jails where they're no longer using the foam pattern because inmates have learned to simply swipe the foam off their skin and then smear it into the faces of the guards. The foam is least likely to get into the attacker's lungs, so scratch all the "I'm suffocating" stuff above; and unless you score a direct hit on the attacker's face you won't get the eyeball reactions either, leaving only the bad-sunburn sensation on whatever patch of skin you do happen to hit, and maybe not even that if you hit his clothes rather than his skin. So aim it carefully.
The stream was designed to combine the advantages of the fog with the advantages of the foam. It is more likely to get into the attacker's eyes, but still won't get into his lungs unless you are very fortunate and he was inhaling with his mouth open at the moment you hit his face. Like the foam, however, it is less likely to contaminate the user herself than the fog is. And like the foam, it has to be directly aimed at the attacker's face; a near-miss won't do anything useful.
The fog is most likely to get the full reaction: eyes, nose, lungs, skin. It requires the least precision in use, and a near miss with it is almost as good as a hit. It is quickest to disperse in the open air, however, and most likely to contaminate the user as well as the attacker.
The intensity of OC is measured in Scoville Heat Units (SHU), and also by the percentage of product within the can. In order to get the true, at-the-nozzle effectiveness rating, you multiply the SHU by the percentage of product. This gives you a common denominator to directly compare a can of OC with an SHU of 10,000 at 2% with one with an SHU of 8,000 at 5%.
Most instructors will tell you to use OC in 2-second bursts, and to immediately move to one side after you spray the attacker. The attacker will very likely lunge directly for the spot he last saw you in, with his arms wide open to try to grab you. You cannot just spray and stand there to see what happens. Flee to one side or the other rather than straight back for your best chance of getting away.
Fox Labs produces probably the best-regarded spray on the market. There are others. Stay away from any product that doesn't give you both the SHU and the %; stay away from any product that looks gimicky; and stay away from anyone charging $50 for less than a half-ounce of OC.
In a minute here, someone is going to come along and suggest a Taser, if they haven't already. "Tasers" come in two types: the type that costs roughly $1000, looks like a gun, and fires two probes into the attacker's body from across-the-room distance. And the type that costs roughly $50, looks like a garage door opener, and has to be held against the attacker's body. The second type isn't really a "Taser", but is sometimes called a Taser by the uninformed.
A true Taser provides a 5-second burst of electrical energy that completely disrupts the brain's ability to transmit messages along the neural pathways. The muscles lock up, the person often loses bladder control, and they fall over without being able to break their fall. Although being Tased hurts really bad, the Taser is not a pain-compliance tool; it relies for its effectiveness on its ability to disrupt the messages being sent from brain to muscles and back again.
In contrast, a shocker does not disrupt the neural pathways except in a very limited and localized manner. If you hold it against the attacker's arm, his arm might lose 10% of its strength during the time the shocker is held against it, but he won't exactly be incapacitated by that. As with the Taser, getting shocked hurts; unlike the Taser, the effectiveness of this tool relies upon pain compliance. So it absolutely will not work against an enraged, determined opponent, or against someone who is stoned or drunk. Oh, and in order to use it at all, you have to physically hold the device against the attacker's body, an iffy proposition at best.
pax
Mandirigma
Member
FWIW collapsible batons aren't permitted in Houston. Otherwise I'd be carrying one.
sm
member
Perps come in all sizes and all types.
Victims do as well.
The mindset of Perps, as suggested earlier, is something she might consider reading and studying, if she is not willing at this point to get her mindset "correct".
Gadgets.
I have to agree gadgets themselves will not always stop an immediate threat.
I failed to snag the link posted today here on THR - but a member of another forum, that CCW's, has had training, continues to train his brain, his skill sets of awareness - was robbed at gunpoint. He was armed.
Noise sometimes works. Some perps do not want to attract attention.
Bystanders do not want to get "involved" and yelling "rape" - sadly - for sure folks do not want to get involved.
"Fire" seems to draw attention more often.
Marine style compressed Air Horns , found in the "marine" section of many stores , are LOUD, and a Noise most folks are not accustomed to hearing.
Whistles are heard at ball games and from LEO directing traffic.
Humans, be they Perps or Regular Folks sorta "ignore" coaches whistles that some sell as "rape whistles.
In MY experiences, testing, evaluations and observations in using these compressed Air Horns - folks Freeze up and pay attention.
My original use was for these horns were to signal for help by elderly and physically limited folks living in duplexes, apartments and situations such as Fire, or serious fall.
One ladies husband was a deaf as a fence post, and blasting that horn would get his attention in another room or out back in his shed where he piddled.
This blast of noise - "Might" cause a perp to lose focus just long enough for her/ someone to run!
It "Might" signal to anyone "trouble" ,"what is that!!" and get attention and Perp not wanting attention to leave and not continue assault.
Might. No guarantees on any of this stuff as pointed out.
One of these horns is about the size of a soda can.
They also have one best thing I can think of to relate to size being about as big around as some of these Sprays .
Think bottle of Tabasco sauce and 3"-3.5" tall.
Umm no , I don't have either handy where I am to measure.
I do know, some College folks do carry these as campuses do not allow Firearms here.
They also carry a AA Maglight...some carry a Mag-light 3 Cell size for evening classes.
Flashlights have a lanyard...be sorta bad to lose a light *ahem*.
ALL of the folks I assisted with this stuff - know to do any and everything possible to NOT let anyone get within their personal circle and withing "grabbing distance".
Ladies and Gents alike.
Canes are another common site on campus.
Victims do as well.
The mindset of Perps, as suggested earlier, is something she might consider reading and studying, if she is not willing at this point to get her mindset "correct".
Gadgets.
I have to agree gadgets themselves will not always stop an immediate threat.
I failed to snag the link posted today here on THR - but a member of another forum, that CCW's, has had training, continues to train his brain, his skill sets of awareness - was robbed at gunpoint. He was armed.
Noise sometimes works. Some perps do not want to attract attention.
Bystanders do not want to get "involved" and yelling "rape" - sadly - for sure folks do not want to get involved.
"Fire" seems to draw attention more often.
Marine style compressed Air Horns , found in the "marine" section of many stores , are LOUD, and a Noise most folks are not accustomed to hearing.
Whistles are heard at ball games and from LEO directing traffic.
Humans, be they Perps or Regular Folks sorta "ignore" coaches whistles that some sell as "rape whistles.
In MY experiences, testing, evaluations and observations in using these compressed Air Horns - folks Freeze up and pay attention.
My original use was for these horns were to signal for help by elderly and physically limited folks living in duplexes, apartments and situations such as Fire, or serious fall.
One ladies husband was a deaf as a fence post, and blasting that horn would get his attention in another room or out back in his shed where he piddled.
This blast of noise - "Might" cause a perp to lose focus just long enough for her/ someone to run!
It "Might" signal to anyone "trouble" ,"what is that!!" and get attention and Perp not wanting attention to leave and not continue assault.
Might. No guarantees on any of this stuff as pointed out.
One of these horns is about the size of a soda can.
They also have one best thing I can think of to relate to size being about as big around as some of these Sprays .
Think bottle of Tabasco sauce and 3"-3.5" tall.
Umm no , I don't have either handy where I am to measure.
I do know, some College folks do carry these as campuses do not allow Firearms here.
They also carry a AA Maglight...some carry a Mag-light 3 Cell size for evening classes.
Flashlights have a lanyard...be sorta bad to lose a light *ahem*.
ALL of the folks I assisted with this stuff - know to do any and everything possible to NOT let anyone get within their personal circle and withing "grabbing distance".
Ladies and Gents alike.
Canes are another common site on campus.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Well, the best way to convince someone of a position is to allow him to reach that conclusion himself. That has to happen, he must own the position. You can't tell him. You can't argue it into him. You can't do anything do "make" him understand.
And the way to bring someone around to be open to even consider an opposing viewpoint is to ask, in this this case her, questions that cause her to consider the full impact of her position. This doesn't mean she'll move off it; she might simply refuse to consider what the impact of that means and close herself off another view.
But, we can't do much more. That's what freedom is, and it includes the freedom to be ignorant and hold a view outside reality. In the end, its her choice. If she chooses to see your position and wants to learn how to provide for her own protection, but doesn't think she can or has the will, you can work with that. If she refuses to think differently, then make it clear the consequences are of that act. Including your unwillingness, if you are so moved, to put yourself in danger to protect her when she refuses to take her own responsibilites in that area.
That's about the best we can do.
And the way to bring someone around to be open to even consider an opposing viewpoint is to ask, in this this case her, questions that cause her to consider the full impact of her position. This doesn't mean she'll move off it; she might simply refuse to consider what the impact of that means and close herself off another view.
But, we can't do much more. That's what freedom is, and it includes the freedom to be ignorant and hold a view outside reality. In the end, its her choice. If she chooses to see your position and wants to learn how to provide for her own protection, but doesn't think she can or has the will, you can work with that. If she refuses to think differently, then make it clear the consequences are of that act. Including your unwillingness, if you are so moved, to put yourself in danger to protect her when she refuses to take her own responsibilites in that area.
That's about the best we can do.
MudCamper
Member
Wow Pax, your gadgit write-up is great. Maybe that should get it's own, sticky post, over in the Non-Firearms Weapons forum...
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