Air pistols

[Iain]

Had a look around using the 'search' function and couldn't find much so I felt it deserved a new thread.

My housemate and I are thinking about getting an airpistol to mess around with in our enclosed back garden. Longest range a shot will be is about 10 metres, and English gun laws restrict the power to 12lb/ft (what does that mean anyway?) or it is a 'firearm' (maybe this thread should be in non-firearms then )

So general questions

CO2?
Pellets vs. bb's?

Any air pistol fans out there recommend any good (not horrendously expensive too please) pistols for accurate fun? I can then have a look to see if they are sold over here.

Thanks.

 

[davera]

Beeman P3

My Beeman P3 gets shot more frequently than any other gun I own. I can just step into the back yard take a few minutes practice ... and then go back to work.

 

[Snowdog]

If I'm not mistaken, 12 FPE is a whole heck of a lot for a .177 caliber pellet pistol. I really don't think you'll find anything off the shelves of your local department store that will come close to that, so your options shouldn't be limited by British law.

 

[jercamp45]

A Webly, Sir!!

I believe it was called the Tempest! But Webly made several others too.
I got one way back when I was too young to BUY a handgun myself, though I had two. It was a great indoors and close range training/fun tool. Made little noise. I like the pump single shot rather than the CO2 repeaters because it keeps costs down. Just need pellets. For training it is good to have only one shot too, to concentrate on accuracy!
Crosman, Daisy, Benjamin and a few other companies make them, but you get what you pay for in the accuracy department. Don't know about Foot Pounds, so that you'll have to research.
I saw the Tempest at Cabala's recently and was tempted to buy another, but I can drive the 20 minutes to a range, spend 10 bucks on a brick of .22 LR and have ALOT of fun too!
I had the Webly quite a few years, and really enjoyed it for indoor shooting. From Alaska, California, and New York City where I left it with a gunless friend when I left. A good tension reliever too! Mostly I used an old Yellow Pages as a back stop!
Good shooting!
Jercamp45

 

[Chris Rhines]

For a cheap, target-grade air pistol, look around for a Baikal IZH-46. Mine shoots dime-sized groups at ten meters (from a rest.) Cheap, good trigger, good sights, and bombproof.

Feinwerkbrau Model 65s are getting very cheap, and they used to be common at the major matches.

Nothing wrong with CO2 power, but avoid anything that takes those never-to-be-damned-enough 12-gram cartridges. They're expensive and a pain in the but to replace.

- Chris

 

[jdege]

Reaffirm the Webley Tempest.

There are three primary power mechanisms for air pistols - CO2, pump, and piston.

CO2 is horribly inaccurate - giving different velocities as the CO2 is exhausted.

Pump is horribly inaccurate - giving different velocities depending upon how many times you've pumped it, and how long it's been since you've pumped it. (Pumping heats up the reservoir, and then it starts to cool when it's done.) And, of course, if you pump too much you can blow the gaskets.

Piston requires you to cock a piston against a fairly heavy spring. It takes an effort, but it's a one-time thing, unlike the pump guns.

When you pull the trigger, the piston slams down the cylinder, compressing the air in a consistent way, and driving the pellet.

Pistons are the most powerful and the most accurate air pistols. (There are external air rifles that are far more powerful than any air pistol, and far beyond what UK law will allow. One I've seen will throw a 200 grain .44 caliber bullet at 850 fps - but you need to drag a scuba tank around with you to recharge the reservior).

In any case, of the piston air rifles, most are competition target pistols - Feinwerkebau, etc. They are not only expensive, but they are large and heavy. AIUI, they are designed so the piston and the cylinder move past each other, resulting in zero recoil. They are phenomenally accurate, but not what you'd want for plinking.

Webley use to be the only manufacturere of the piston air pistols that aren't specialty target pistols, and that were light enough to use for general plinking. They may not be, any more. But they're still a great design.

I have a Webley Tempest I bought more that 20 years ago, that has had regular use, in the time I've had it, has had no maintenance, and which still works perfectly.

 

[JohnKSa]

I think you are mistaken on the power limit. That is the power limit for air rifles. If I'm not mistaken the power limit for air pistols is half that.

I'm quoting from memory based on some research I did about 5 years ago when I thought I might be moving to the UK, so I could be wrong. It's worth looking into though.

A typical pistol pellet in .177 is around 8 grains. To stay under the energy limit (which I'm thinking is 6fpe), the velocity needs to be 580fps or less. Most air pistols fit the bill.

The Beeman P3 is sold as the Webley Nemesis in Britain, the Beeman P1 is quite similar to the HW45 and is over the limit. I'm sure that there is a UK limit HW45 for sale on that side of the pond but don't know if it has a different model #. The Beeman P2 is another Weihrauch product, but I'm not sure what their designation for that one is. It's a nice pistol and under the limit.

The Webley Tempest/Hurricane is a nice, well made pistol that is also quite compact for a spring-piston airgun. Unfortunately, it can be quite difficult to shoot accurately.

 

[jdege]

I know that the competition shooters consider the Webley piston pistols to be horribly inaccurate, but the competition air shooters standards for accuracy are absurd, at least to any firearms shooter.

(The piston air mechanism has far greater consistency than any firearm will ever achieve.)

In any case, the competition shooters don't like the Webleys because they want a gun that has zero recoil, and the Webley design has a noticable recoil as the piston slams, but at half the weight of the competition guns.

If you're a firearms shooter, controlling the recoil on a Webley so as to maintain reasonable accuracy isn't something you'll have any trouble with.

 

[Nobody]

I've seen that RWS is re-releasing their 5G Magnum pellet pistol and their website lists it as hitting 700 fps with a .177 caliber pellet. Not shabby for a pellet pistol!

 

[JohnKSa]

If you're a firearms shooter, controlling the recoil on a Webley so as to maintain reasonable accuracy isn't something you'll have any trouble with.

Attaining good accuracy with a recoilling spring-piston air pistol is MUCH more difficult than with a firearm pistol. Not because the recoil is severe, but because the recoil comes BEFORE the pellet starts moving.

That means that even a small change in the way you hold the gun or in the tightness of your grip can make a difference in the way the gun recoils and therefore in the pellet impact point.

Even good airpistol shooters (who can shoot very good groups within a given shooting session) may find that their point of impact changes significantly from shooting session to shooting session due to unavoidable changes in their grip/hold from one session to the next.

 

[jdege]

Good airpistol shooters think that a 1/4" group is abysmal.

 

[falconer]

It is not that us competition air shooters have insane accuracy standards, its just that we cannot accept a shot thats not a 10. It makes us cranky

If I can hold the 10 ring, so should the gun.

 

[peteinct]

Hi, I own a webley airpistol the one with the target sights. The trigger is poor. It feels like the tension of the cocked piston is right on the trigger. I find it very hard to shoot with any sort of accuracy at all. On the other hand my Diana RWS 34 rifle is a joy to shoot but the fps is higher than english law allows. I have seen English air pistol magazines that might have better info. pete

 

[JohnKSa]

To answer the initial question do a search on

FAC UK Energy limit air pistol

Here's a link that came up from that search.

http://www.rout1.fsnet.co.uk/Narftc/NarftcHome/Airgunlaw.htm

12ft/lbs rifle. 6ft/lbs pistol. There are also caliber restrictions.

 

[jdege]

Accuracy is meaningless, by itself.

The question is whether a pistol is accurate enough for its use, and what would be the costs of a pistol that was more accurate.

A Webley will hit a rat in the head from across the barn, and that's as accurate as it needs to be. Paying four times as much for a pistol with twice the weight is not a reasonable trade-off.

 

[Penforhire]

Another vote for the P3/Nemesis in .177. If I recall correctly it has all of 2 ft-lb of energy? Great trigger. Added a slip-on grip (stock plastic grip gets slick). It is more accurate at 10 M than I am (having tested it on a rest). And it is not fussy about what brand/weight pellets to feed it. My own testing shows I'm the limiting factor. My only complaint is the rear sight is at the highest pump leverage location so I end up either pressing on it or cupping my hand around it.