AK or AR-15?

[Sam1911]

Those pics are all red dots... not scopes. Big difference.

Well, that's incorrect again, as others pointed out, but then what you also actually said was "Optics don't belong on battle rifles..."

Even if you had correctly identified whether those were telescopic or un-magnified optical sights, they are still OPTICS.

Something that I've discovered over an over again on this forum, for my own part and also on behalf of many others whether they realized it or not, is that it is perfectly honorable and acceptable to say, "oh, I was wrong." Or, "Hey, I learned something new today, thanks guys!" Or (for the less courageous) to simply stop posting in a particular thread once one's theories or opinions are shown to be materially incorrect.

Continuing to declaim and reinforce a voided position tends to lead to mistakes piled upon fallacies, moving the goalposts to try to stay in the game, and further erosion of one's own credibility.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Some of you guys have been watching too many nutnfancy special ops SHTF end of the world zombie apocalypse videos. Optics are for precision shots, battle rifles are not precision rifles. Battle rifles are designed to be 100% reliable in the worst and most brutal environments and optics don't meet that requirement like iron peep sights do. Also most gun battles take place at ranges of 100-300 yards.
Snipers is a whole different conversation but last I checked they weren't using M16's.

Guy has made up his mind already though so it doesn't really matter.

Well I got my laugh-at-a-troll in early today.

What do you consider a "battle rifle"? Since its an arbitrary term used on web forums to generally differentiate between intermediate calibers like the 5.56x45 and larger calibers like .308.

Nothing is 100% reliable in the worst and most brutal environments.

Optics can and do hold up in extreme use in brutal locations. The pictured ACOG was mounted on my M4 when I was in Iraq. It, along with me, were blown out of a humvee, was crushed under 250+ pounds of me and gear, and still held zero. Cosmetic damage, sure, but functionally flawless. The ensuing gun battle took place at under 100 yards, and I never fired a shot in anything but semi auto, so an AR15 would have been sufficient. But since its not a battle rifle, I guess thousands of police departments need select fire upgrades for their... What are they? Tinker toys?

Anyway... Bet it'll get your goat to know the M16 was fielded as a sniper rifle back in the Vietnam era.



I like optics, even nonmagnified red dot sights, on my battle rifles.

 

[Chuck R.]

Some of you guys have been watching too many nutnfancy special ops SHTF end of the world zombie apocalypse videos. Optics are for precision shots, battle rifles are not precision rifles. Battle rifles are designed to be 100% reliable in the worst and most brutal environments and optics don't meet that requirement like iron peep sights do. Also most gun battles take place at ranges of 100-300 yards.
Snipers is a whole different conversation but last I checked they weren't using M16's.

Guy has made up his mind already though so it doesn't really matter.

I’ll give you one example of how much value optics are on a military weapon regardless if you want to use the “battle rifle” tag or not.

I recently (Tuesday) got back from western Ukraine where a multi-national group is bringing the Ukrainian’s up to speed as part of their future possible inclusion in NATO, also to assist with their ongoing conflict with Russia.

The trainers (US, CAF, LIT) spent quite a bit of time working on their POI for suitability/compatibility for the UKR based on their weapon systems (individual, crew served, main gun) to get close to western qualification standards. One area they had to reinvent the wheel (dumb down) on was small arms due in part to the lack of optics on the UK AKs (74s and 47s) VS the US and CAF (primarily M16 family). The UKR guys on average just couldn’t make the standard qualification. The better US/CAF shooters did manage to qualify with the AKs, but much lower than their standard average scores.

The shooting was out to 300 meters…..

Chuck

 

[mf-dif]

I state my opinion that optics don't belong on any battle rifle and everyone throws a temper tantrum. The AK wasn't designed for the option to add optics. The AR isn't a battle rifle.

By optics I assume we are talking about scopes since the definition of optics is...
the scientific study of sight and the behavior of light, or the properties of transmission and deflection of other forms of radiation.

The OP never specified though. Doesn't matter either way for the AK though as any optics really don't have a good way to mount solid the rifle.
The AR technically isn't a battle rifle as its actually a civilian version of the M16 which is a battle rifle.

Just stop. You already think an ACOG is a red dot.

 

[SuperNaut]

A "vs. Thread" that went bad? That never happens.

Oh and the right answer to the OP is to buy both. (jmorris nailed it in post #2)

 

[justin22885]

A "vs. Thread" that went bad? That never happens.

Oh and the right answer to the OP is to buy both. (jmorris nailed it in post #2)

i think its funny that it was an AR or AK thread that went bad for something completely unrelated

 

[justin22885]

well, now the fun part begins.. putting together the right build while dodging the gimmicks, useless add ons, and the fanboys who will insist certain features are a must because some website or youtube video said so..

i'll just be putting together basically an M16A3 type of rifle, 20 inch probably government contoured chrome lined barrel, A2 stock, probably a free float tube handguards (too often i find two-piece handguards to be unsatisfactory), and the only thing i MIGHT do thats out of the ordinary is go to a side charger so i can get one of those universal cheek rests mounted where i like it without having to worry about it interfering with the charging handle

ive considered a non reciprocating side charger as well for the simplicity and because its what im used to, instinctively when i go to charge a rifle, having extensively used M1As, AKs, and bolt actions in the past, i reach for the right side, not the left

 

[Sam1911]

A few thoughts come to mind:

1) Chrome lining doesn't seem to have any value at all for the purpose you're describing, and the better long-range shooters would tell you it robs accuracy.

2) A flat-top upper tends to remove the necessity of those bulked-up cheek rest risers (you can actually mount scopes LOWER than you probably will want them), so you can stick with the tried-and-true standard AR charging handle instead of adding the complexity of one-off, proprietary doo-dads like side-charging systems, and certainly can avoid the even more complex, fragile, and proprietary non-reciprocating ones.

Simple is good.

 

[justin22885]

so long as i can get the proper cheek weld with something like a 4x illuminated etched optic, thats all i care about.. and yes, simple is good so i'll be sticking with a fixed stock as well, and possibly an A2 front sight block

im looking for something thats going to be an all around general purpose rifle.. a go-to rifle, something suitable for WROL situations.. this is NOT going to be a match rifle, more of a military rifle with a bit more range and accuracy than the standard, and using my 75 grain hand loads... reports seem to be sub-moa grouping with the green mountain barrels which are chrome lined and since my goals are no worse than 2 MOA with M855 ammo (i mention M855 because its an easy reference point) i think chrome lining is well within the realm of what i want to do and saves me a lot of money i can put towards optics, or a decent handguard

 

[crazysccrmd]

I'd really look for a melonite barrel. You will get the benefits of wear and corrosion resistance that chrome lining offers but without the potential loss in accuracy. If you're using a free float handguard look into a good set of iron sights that will mount to it. That saves some time and money not having to get your barrel drilled for A2 FSB pins.

Justin - check out the "AK" in this video. I haven't looked into it at all but it seems like something you might be interested in.

https://www.full30.com/video/5d69d7d005a8b65fcb79695e59efd95a

 

[justin22885]

if you can find me an A1, A2, or medium contour 20 inch barrel with 1 in 7 twist thats melonited, then id go that route, but having the right length, twist, and contour is more important to me and most the melonited barrels ive seen were HBAR

 

[crazysccrmd]

I would normally suggest ARP barrels but it looks like the 20" is out of stock.

I have no experience with this barrel but I've thought about building a rifle like you describe using it.

http://www.jsesurplus.com/20556lightweightbarrel1x7nitride625.aspx

 

[javjacob]

Hmm...I don't remember ever saying no battle rifle ever has optics. I just said my opinion that optics don't belong on a battle rifle. I guess opinions cant be handled here. Again you guys keep twisting my words and try to start an argument over nothing. Like I said several posts ago the OP already made up his mind so it doesn't matter anymore.

This is the most uptight site I have ever been on in my life. LOL Opinion not welcome unless its the same as the rest. I just threw out a thought that was different from the rest to bring up more options. People here don't handle that very well riding their high horses though.

A good example is
My brother was wanting to put a scope on his SKS for deer hunting. He had 3 at the time and thought he would dedicate one to deer hunting. I told him they don't take scopes very well and don't like to hold zero ect. He still wanted to do it but started looking at other options. He ended up doing a trade for that 1 SKS for a 30-06 deer rifle with a scope. Now he has a rifle much better suited for deer with a much longer range and a flatter trajectory ect.

If he would have asked you guys you would have just pointed him to some SKS scope mounts lol.

 

[hso]

considering how much work this is, and that my astigmatism at this point in time dictates a changes in optics i cant help but think i should build an AR-15 instead

Yup

 

[javjacob]

Quote: Oh and the right answer to the OP is to buy both. :Quote

I agree! I said the same thing in post #31 where I said buy the AR and also keep the AK.
No reason to have to choose between one or the other when you can have both.

 

[Robert]

Justin, my AR is a simple no frills 20" parts build that will put 5 77gr SMK bullets into an area the size of my thumb nail at 100y using a sand and a 4x ACOG. Upper and lower are Rock River, barrel is a 20" Colt 1:7, Magpul CTR stock and MOE + grip, and a 15" Troy Alpha float tube. Stock trigger and bcg. Nothing fancy, but it shoots like a dream.

 

[briansmithwins]

A good example is
My brother was wanting to put a scope on his SKS for deer hunting. He had 3 at the time and thought he would dedicate one to deer hunting. I told him they don't take scopes very well and don't like to hold zero ect. He still wanted to do it but started looking at other options. He ended up doing a trade for that 1 SKS for a 30-06 deer rifle with a scope. Now he has a rifle much better suited for deer with a much longer range and a flatter trajectory ect.

The SKS is a crap rifle to try to mount optics to. All of the options I've ever seen have some major flaw.

Modern AKs, OTOH, have a side plate riveted to the receiver for mounting optics.

BSW

 

[yugorpk]

This is the most uptight site I have ever been on in my life. LOL Opinion not welcome unless its the same as the rest. I just threw out a thought that was different from the rest to bring up more options. People here don't handle that very well riding their high horses though.

You have heard of ARFCOM right?

 

[justin22885]

given the role of this rifle being a go-to rifle, this is another reason i want a simple fixed stock.. no springs, detents, or pins to break, a cavity inside for a cleaning kit so if you need to grab your rifle, you wont forget your cleaning supplies.. and the downside?.. so theres a half of inch difference in length of pull between wearing a jacket or not... boo hoo, i think i'll live

with a rifle length buffer tube and some of the heavier buffers out there, i should be able to make this rifle pretty reliable when dirty.. just need to figure out exactly what im doing for sights and a forearm

i think im going to go with a dual-tone color scheme as well, maybe all flat black on the lower with a dark gray metallic duracoat or cerakote on the upper and handguards

 

[justin22885]

so. heres a question.. for maintenance under the handguard, standard AR type rifles have the two piece handguards you pull down the delta ring to pop out.. then you can access the gas system and under the handguard for cleaning, a free float tube just slips over the barrel, these are typically seen with low-profile gas blocks, the handguard can be slipped off over top of the gas block and you can clean/maintain under

so, this pretty much means i'll be stuck with two-piece screw together floated handguards if i keep the A2 front sight.. would the GG&G flip up front sight (the one with the bayonet lug) be small enough to slip a handguard on and off without having to remove it?

 

[justin22885]

I would normally suggest ARP barrels but it looks like the 20" is out of stock.

I have no experience with this barrel but I've thought about building a rifle like you describe using it.

http://www.jsesurplus.com/20556lightweightbarrel1x7nitride625.aspx

not sure how i feel about "multiple manufacturers" being the source of this barrel

 

[Robert]

There is no maintenance to be done under the float tube. There is nothing that needs to be cleaned under there. Mine is easy to remove if need be, but there is no need.

 

[justin22885]

maybe, but i cant find a nitrided or stainless barrel to go for and parkerizing isnt perfect from preventing rust.. the barrel will probably end up being parkerized, maybe i'll cerakote it for an extra layer of protection to be on the safe side

 

[MistWolf]

Justin, don't over think the barrel. While there are differences in barrels, out in the field, most of those differences are minor. The difference between chrome and meloniting in accuracy might be as much as a half MOA. The difference in wear might be a couple thousand rounds, give or take. The differences in most profiles might be 2-4 ounces. The difference between a 16 and 20 inch barrel might be as much as 200 fps.

Buy a quality barrel with a 1:7 or 1:8 twist with a government, pencil, medium contour (medcon), lightweight or lighter weight contour made of 4140 CMV, 4150 CMV, 416 SS or 410 SS and you'll have good accuracy and will take a lot of money to pay for enough ammo to wear it out.

As for details, look for 1:7 or 1:8 twist, a lightweight, lighter weight or medcon profile. Chromelined or melonited doesn't matter very much and is more of a personal choice. Same thing with a 4150 or SS barrel.

The 1:7 or 1:7 will shoot almost anything well in the velocities the 223/5.56 will generate in barrel lengths from 10.5 to 20 inch.

The lightweight, lighter weight & government profile barrels all have about the same profile where it matters- near the chamber. The thickness of the barrel near the chamber matters when if comes to cooling and controlling heat. The extra thickness of the .gov profile, forward of the gas block, does little to contribute to controlling heat and adds useless weight. Some shooters like how it helps smooth swing when shooting at a moving target and helps settled the muzzle when shooting offhand.

If the barrel has M4 ramps, it's easier to find an upper to match. Few uppers are made with rifle ramp anymore.

If you get a quality barrel with 1:7 or 1:8 twist with M4 feed ramps in a profile and length that suits your needs, you'll get a barrel that works. (You'll hate a barrel you think is too heavy before you hate a barrel you think is too light.) The final thing is to make sure the gas port is the right size, which isn't a big deal. If the port is too small, it can be opened up. If it's too big, an SLR adjustable gas block will fix it.

FN barrels are an excellent choice

 

[justin22885]

Justin, don't over think the barrel. While there are differences in barrels, out in the field, most of those differences are minor. The difference between chrome and meloniting in accuracy might be as much as a half MOA. The difference in wear might be a couple thousand rounds, give or take. The differences in most profiles might be 2-4 ounces. The difference between a 16 and 20 inch barrel might be as much as 200 fps.

Buy a quality barrel with a 1:7 or 1:8 twist with a government, pencil, medium contour (medcon), lightweight or lighter weight contour made of 4140 CMV, 4150 CMV, 416 SS or 410 SS and you'll have good accuracy and will take a lot of money to pay for enough ammo to wear it out.

As for details, look for 1:7 or 1:8 twist, a lightweight, lighter weight or medcon profile. Chromelined or melonited doesn't matter very much and is more of a personal choice. Same thing with a 4150 or SS barrel.

The 1:7 or 1:7 will shoot almost anything well in the velocities the 223/5.56 will generate in barrel lengths from 10.5 to 20 inch.

The lightweight, lighter weight & government profile barrels all have about the same profile where it matters- near the chamber. The thickness of the barrel near the chamber matters when if comes to cooling and controlling heat. The extra thickness of the .gov profile, forward of the gas block, does little to contribute to controlling heat and adds useless weight. Some shooters like how it helps smooth swing when shooting at a moving target and helps settled the muzzle when shooting offhand.

If the barrel has M4 ramps, it's easier to find an upper to match. Few uppers are made with rifle ramp anymore.

If you get a quality barrel with 1:7 or 1:8 twist with M4 feed ramps in a profile and length that suits your needs, you'll get a barrel that works. (You'll hate a barrel you think is too heavy before you hate a barrel you think is too light.) The final thing is to make sure the gas port is the right size, which isn't a big deal. If the port is too small, it can be opened up. If it's too big, an SLR adjustable gas block will fix it.

FN barrels are an excellent choice

i think ive already decided on the GM A2 government style barrel with 1-7 twist, now im just trying to determine gas block, front sight, and handguards