ak47 or Springfield M1A for SHTF

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Combatops1911

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Ok I'm trying to make a decision between a good AK like Arsenal/Vector or going with a Springfield M1A (either the SOCOM or Scout Squad) and would like to get some opninions here. Which would be better for a SHTF circumstance. Which is the better rifle and why? I know the M1A will be more of a precision shooter but is the AK more durable?
 
I have BOTH!
They are equally durably and my 14s are extremely accurate.
 
Since I have owned both types of guns I give ya my thoughts....
I can't speak for the upscale AK as I just owned a SAR1 and I have a Standard M1A. When it comes to accuracy there is no contest the M1A is a surgical instrument. As for reliability the AK is legendary but again the M1A is a damn good gun and I never had problems with mine. I no longer own my SAR as I perfer to have a gun that is more accurate. The M1A has a more powerfull round but the gun is bigger.
 
A friend of mine describes the AK as "a throwaway gun for a throwaway soldier".While that might be a bit harsh,comparing one to an M14 is like comparing a Hyundai to a Corvette.
 
Which I would choose depends largely on what I envision the SHTF to be. All are not created equal.

Some folks will call a mugging a SHTF. That's not a SHTF. That's life.

Then on the other end of the spectrum we have TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it) where we all live like road warrior and fight off bands of mutant zombie squirrels and bandits wearing football shoulderpads with spikes on them.

More realistic to me are natural disaster scenerios where you have a brief to slightly protracted period of societal and civil unrest. For that, I only have experience with Katrina to draw from. And even in that experience, it is hardly encompassing. A snow storm in CO or fires in CA or floods in the NW are dramatically different situations with different needs.


So, down to the rifles -- from my perspective.

Both are battle proven. Both have shown they can do the job required of them.

Pros to the AK:

Reliable: No one can deny that an AK is a very reliable platform.

More compact: In a Katrina-like situation, that mattered. My rifle wasn't on me all the time. It was in my jeep most of the time. You just simply can't do what you need to do every day with a rifle hanging on your shoulder. And you don't want to leave it out and unattended while you are getting through the day.

Lighter: Believe me, that makes a difference. It is hard enough to get through one of those things without having bricks tied to you. Lighter is good.

Able to carry more ammunition: It makes a difference, but not in a way that you may think. Likely, you will never fire the rifle-- however, 7.62x39 is lighter and you can slap a 30 round magazine in the rifle. So for all practical purposes, you can have 50% more firepower available for the same weight. Likely, you won't have extra magazines in a tactical vest while you are working on getting the tree out of your Master Bedroom.

Cons to the AK:

Accuracy: Some AKs are not known for accuracy. For most practical purposes, they are plenty accurate enough. And then there are the Saiga AKs which have very good accuracy for that particular platform. In a scenerio where I am having to hunt to survive-- such as a Max Max world gone to hell, I'd rather have something else for a longer shot and better accuracy.

Knockdown and range: .308 winchester will beat 7.62x39 in both respects hands down. If you need that kind of range and knockdown, the AK will be lacking.

Reaction from others: I don't like it, and I don't think it is right, but the uninformed public gets tends to get the willies from seeing an AK. Oddly enough, they seem to handle seeing an M4 or AR-15 much better. I suppose that is because they see the good guys on the news with them. And we wonder how much we are affected by the news.... but I digress....

Overpenetration: A concern with any rifle if you live in an urban or suburban setting.



Pros to the M1A:

Reliable: Its battle proven. Likely, nothing you experience will top that.


Accuracy: My understanding of the M1A is that it is a very accurate platform. As noted above, if you need that kind of accuracy for hunting, this is the rifle.

Knockdown and range: Again, 308 winchester trumps 7.62x39 any day in these departments.

Reaction from others: The M1A is likely not to get a rise out of anyone other than a rabid anti-gunner. It looks every PC if one just glances at it. For those of you that think that what others think doesn't matter...you couldn't be more wrong. Anything that has the potential to draw more issues down on you is a bad thing. You have enough to worry about.


Cons to M1A:

Weight: Its a heavy rifle. That matters.

Size: This matters more than weight since you will likely be pulling it out of vehicles a lot.

Ammunition weight: As noted above.

Overpenetration: A concern for any rifle if you live in an urban or suburban setting.


Now.... brass tacks time.


We spend WAY too much time worrying about what particular firearm to get for a SHTF. Any battle-proven, fairly accurate one will do most likely.

For the most practical matters of a SHTF, you need to worry about what handgun to get. From my experiences with 8 weeks of Katrina's aftermath, my rifles stayed in the vehicle or in the house 98% of the time. My handgun was strapped to my waist 24/7.

You won't do in a store to pay for fuel carrying an AK or M1A-- but you will have a handgun under your shirt.

You won't be in the yard operating a chainsaw while having an M1A over your shoulder-- but you will have a Glock in a waist holster.


It is unlikely that you can manipulate an AK up to the window of your vehicle in the event of someone trying to carjack you. You can get a 1911 up rather quickly.

I think you see my point...


Now.. beyond the actual firearm...

it is way more important to stack ammunition deep. In the aftermath of Katrina, it was impossible to purchase ammunition or firearms due to executive order. If you don't have ammunition, you are screwed. And if you are envisioning a Mad Max world, you better have all the ammuntion on hand that you think you will EVER need. Wal-Mart won't be opening anytime soon. And even if it did, I wonder if the factories making ammunition are operating?


Now beyond firearms and ammunition....


If SHTF in a natural disaster setting, there are about 22,315 things you need to worry about more important than firearms. It is a good idea to REALISTICALLY evaluate the risks of living in your particular area and work through a needs analysis for you and your family in that situation. For instance, I really don't concern myself with Volcanic Eruption SHTF. I don't really worry about winter storms. If I lived on the side of Mt. Hood, I may have different needs. But they really don't worry about hurricanes, and I do.

Once you cover those bases, you can really start looking more in-depth at security.

Guns won't save you if you are already dead. On the flip side, once you have supplies, you become a target to others.


And Finally....


The single most important preparation of SHTF is community. Chances are you forgot something critical. Chances are that you did not envision everything coming at you. Likely, your neighbors screwed up, too. Because you are thinking about these things, it is likely that you are more prepared than those neighbors--- but you still need them.

Through community, strength is found. Through community, survivability is easier. And the bonds that are formed through such a thing are invaluable LONG after the SHTF has passed.

As a person that is considering these things, you have the potential to be an organizer and leader in your community. By this, I mean you have the opportunity to help alleviate the suffering of not just yourself, but the community you live in. That is a worthy cause. Many will not know where to begin, perhaps you can help assess the situation and organize efforts to dig or cut out.

Or it may be organizing the distributing of food. We ate like kings for a week after Katrina because we were cooking everything we had in the freezers before it ruined. Others did the same. At one point, you couldn't give food away in our community. It got dramatically different in Week 2-8.

But there ARE people who could have used that excess food early on.

I hope I am making my points well enough.


There is so much to do. But the good news is that you find something inside of everyone that is able to meet those challenges. If you are looking at SHTF scenerios already, you are already an asset to your community, but you bear a greater responsibility to get it "right." Whether it be family, friends, or community, they need you-- even if they don't realize it now.


-- John
 
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Dirka1 on AR15.com boiled it down... when looking at a weapon for end of the world SHTF or what ever ...

Originally Posted By Dirka1:



Do you need a weapon designed for the doctrine of modern warfare with belt fed machine guns,
armored fighting vehicles, artillery, and close air support backing up the shooter of a assault rifle?

Or do you need to look at a weapon designed to fit a older doctrine were the individual rifle
and a heavier round is supposed do a bit more of the heavy lifting in the fight?

My reply:

I decided on a collection weapons designed to fit a older doctrine were the individual
rifle and a heavier round is supposed do a bit more of the heavy lifting in the fight.

M14

SAGE_NAVY-SEAL_CQBicon.jpg


My AKs are excellent back up rifles.
 
Great post, John.

Sounds like you need a tactical sling for your chainsaw. :D


For any firearm your life is going to depend on, you should have a lot of practice time with it. You can do loading, handling, clearing and dryfiring drills at the house but you still need trigger time. That could be an issue for the M1A with current ammo prices. An AK is much more affordable to shoot and stockpile ammo.
 
Sounds like you need a tactical sling for your chainsaw.


Ha Ha Ha Slugless.... yep... a 3-point tactical sling. Maybe I could get a rail system and mount a Surfire on it while i am at it.

Actually, my exerience with Chainsaws during that time is to have a good place in mind as to where you will be throwing it as you are jumping out of the way of a falling tree when the weight shifts. I don't want that sucker strapped to me. :what:

Life would be GREAT if they ever made a chainsaw that had an detachable electric starter. Oh, the words that can come out of your mouth while trying to start a small engine with a pull-cord....


-- John
 
1. Mr. Warren above hit it pretty center, IMO.

2. Why not both? If it's that bad, I'd hope you weren't all alone. Have one guy/girl run each. Both have thier places/uses, both places/uses need addressed. And by that point you better be in some kind of group. As a lone straggler, it'll just be a matter of time.
 
Both are good, but the point made about the pistol is very good. In all likelihood, the pistol is the only gun that will stay by your side all the time.

Also, if you hear people messing around your neighborhood at night, are you going to sit in ambush or fire a warning shot to warn them away? A shotgun is probably better for that. Shotguns are cheap and 100 packs of bird shot for warning are there.

Cost: You can get a top of the line AK and a couple cases of ammo for the price of an M1A, not to mention mags and .308 ammo. Depends on your situation.

Accuracy: I agree the M1A is more accurate, but a Saiga or Arsenal AK will be very accurate as well. You are just more limited in range due. Add a side mounted red dot or scope to the AK and you are accurate out to 200 yards at least. I would expect most people would want a scope for the M1A out at 200 yards anyway.

NightTime: When are you likely to need a rifle? I think odds are it will be at night. A good red dot scope or illuminated reticle would be nice. Night vision would be great.
 
Hand guns for SHTF

I hope everyone has a good hand gun or two and knows how to use them!

I don't want the bad guys to ever get close enough for a pistol shot, but I do have a pair of G21s and many loaded hi-cap mags just in case.

My M14s are my primary SHTF rifles, followed by AKs, 12 gauge, .357 mag 94, 10/22 etc ...
 
I own both rifles also, SLR-95 and M1A standard. As much as I adore that M1A and as long as I've waited to finally get one, if I had to choose between either for a SHTF scenario here in Memphis, it'd probably be the AK.
My reasons are that they are both .30 caliber bullets and the 7.62X39 cartridge is as effective as anybody could ask for at the ranges you'd most likely engage at. At further ranges, I'd probably duck and run for safety, but if I were forced to engage I'd not feel undergunned with the AK.
It is shorter, lighter, carries more rounds in the mags, and as the SLR-95 is a milled reciever AK it is surprisingly accurate for a carbine.
On the other hand, if SHTF where I lived on the plains of the midwest I'd probably choose the M1A for it's range.
I have no reservations regarding the reliability or durability of either rifle though so those considerations aren't a factor in this decision.
 
Around here the M1a would probrobly do better, since it fires a better round to take down the large number of deer and larger animals in this region. Of course the AK47 would be up to the job. If I had to carry it for any large distance by vehicle I would perfer the M1a. We have horses across the field and I would pick the m1a for them too, but for generally walking I might be tempted to go with the ak47.

Thats assuming the normal troublesome situration would be a powerful storm knocking out power, road and causing big shortages for a period of a few weeks. Even without two weeks of power around here with a snowstorm society didn't collapse.
 
I love the M1,i've always wanted one,but for the situation you're buying this for, i think the AK wins hands-down. You can find good AK's for under or around $500, what's the garand, $1400 ? I'm not sure how inexpensive M1 mags are, but i know AK mags are everywhere for under $15. Also, have you priced .308 ammo lately ? It's ridiculous, i'm glad i got some of the south african NATO stuff back when it was cheap. AK ammo is under $200 delivered for a 1000 round case, that fact alone makes it a better choice for your intended use.Sure, the garand is accurate, way more so than the AK, but we're talking SHTF, in other words REALITY, not paper targets or milk jugs at 300 yards. At any realistic distance,(say, 50-200 yds.) the Ak will hit a enemy-combatant-sized target, or a deer,just as well as the garand, only cheaper and lighter.
 
Which I would choose depends largely on what I envision the SHTF to be. All are not created equal.

More realistic to me are natural disaster scenerios where you have a brief to slightly protracted period of societal and civil unrest. For that, I only have experience with Katrina to draw from. And even in that experience, it is hardly encompassing. A snow storm in CO or fires in CA or floods in the NW are dramatically different situations with different needs.

My fellow Hurricane Alley resident has it right. Here in Florida SHTF is a ‘cane and no power for days, perhaps weeks. I can’t call LEO who’s dealing with looters and victims and ask him to come to my house because I heard a noise.

So an AK or M1 or even an SKS will do fine in my lap sitting on the front porch.
 
here in the NE we dont have much worry about tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, or volcanoes. localized flooding is possible but nothing that would be too serious. some form of freak blizzard could pose problems. but being outside the city, i doubt any foragers/looter would venture my way in such conditions. mass displacement do to say, a tidal wave hitting the coast is a threat. Some kind of mass panic would be my primary concern, being near a large city. race riot, disease panic, economic breakdown... dare i say it... zombies.

the suburban are would lead to close ranges, and the threats posed are from quantity from the city. Political climate would lead to maximum concealment. And the plan would be home defense, and neighborhood watch ( lots of old people in the area)

Il go with the AK

if anyone can think ofsituations that could arise in the mid North East, lemme know
 
My Natural Disaster in an Urban Area (NDUA) SHTF gun is a KelTec SU16CA. Bear in mind that I own all the usual suspects in terms of EBRs and MBRs.

That sucker is so light, so accurate, and (after upgrading) so reliable that I feel totally comfortable with it. A 20 in the well, another in the stock, I'm a happy camper. If I need to go out, fold it up, put it in my little navy blue high school kid bookbag, and the 20s go in the outside pocket. No one needs to know that I'm carrying a rifle.

EBRs and MBRs have their roles, too. But as the above poster noted, different SHTF situations are best addressed using different tools. Now is actually a very good time to buy an SU16 because so many folks are buying ARs since they are now cheap.
 
Comparison threads like this are a constant at THR, and the answers reflect both personal preference as much as the realities present in the different regions in which our participants reside.

SHTF is a relative concept. Are we talking absolute SHTF, in which there are no rules, save survival, or are we talking SHTF light, in which the forces of relative justice are still operating, even if it is only to deprive citizens of arms and ammunition?

Absolute SHTF presumes that there are no criminal or social penalties for firearms possession, only for not having them. Light SHTF dictates that care and prudence be exercised in weapons selection, storage, and utilization. I submit that a semiautomatic carbine with a short barrel (16" or <), paired with a major caliber pistol, makes the most sense. They're lighter, they're shorter, and with a folding stock, they just about do a disappearing act. On a ballistic note, 7.62x39 is rather similar to 30-30, and I can't begin to think of anything that has taken more venison in this country. Moreover, such carbines are more vehicle-friendly when responding to an external threat, and the ammunition that they consume is lighter and smaller per round unit.

Regionally, we can come up with disparate answers to the same question. For someone out in the rural west, or at least further out than, say, Ohio, greater distances and less interaction with others might mean more platform choices. For them, a 16" semiautomatic carbine, while useful in some places, might not offer the reach that a longer rifle, in a heavier caliber than 5.56x45, or 7.62x39, or even 5.45x39, might afford.

It isn't that I find that the semiautomatic M-14 clones are without merit. It's just that they have requirements and features that might tend to be limiting away from the range, in a real-world use environment that very few of us could even begin to imagine.

Given the relative cost of ammunition, and the weight of even a SOCOM-type Springfield offering, I would suggest that the money for a 7.62x51 beast be better spent on ammunition for a carbine, training, appropriate clothing and gear, and bulk supplies of food and water.

Most people never completely consider what might remain of the world once the bulk of the turkey-shoot phase is over, which is why I suggest thinking about the pork and beans as much as you might sweat the decision between an M1A and an AK47 of some sort.
 
Indeed. Pork and Beans.
Food, water, shelter, and hygiene requirements. Don't forget medical.
Until those are all squared away, any firearm, even a $50 M44 Mosin Nagant, will do the trick.
 
What is SHTF??

A lot I think depends on what SHTF means to you.

Here in Southern CA, it's Earthquakes or Riots. Having been through Northridge and Rodney King I know one thing for sure, whatever i nearest me when THIS SHTF, will be the best. Hell, in an earthquke I'll be lucky to find anything and or get to it.

My shotgun and one handgun are always right by the bed when I'm home.

If I can get to my safe and oepn it, it's going to be the M1A. I'm more likely to be able to find ammo for it and it does every job I can conjur up. Any hunting I would have to do would likely be at any store that's not destroyed.
 
either would be great. i would go with the m1a scout.

really you have to think about what the distances that you are gonna be using the gun to engage the bg's and what the conditions are gonna be. either one will serve you well in about any situation that i can thik of. i love the ak and i own one. i want an m1a and i love the m1a as a hole, and if i wa sgoing into danger and i had a choie i would 9 times out of 10 take the m1a
 
First Thank you all for the info. Second I asked about the rifles, not a dissertation on survival skills, pork, beens, h20, canned goods etc. hahaha j/k, it was interesting to read about.

I am set w/good handgun(s) which I train with (almost as much as I should), Kimber 1911, HK USP Compact .40SW, Glock 22 and a few others... For the shotgun comments my 590a1 w/Comp. ML3 on a Mesa Tactical Rail (as the posters stated) will do great for the home defense situations.

To sum it up I would love to buy both the AK and the M1A and I think I might do just that (one day, hopefully sooner than the election). I will probably go with an UF or SF AK for a good compact rifle and still pondering between which M1A version, the SOCOM or Scout.

I know many threads on here are debates based on personal opinions which is why I posted the thread, I wanted to see what others thought. I live in an area that goes from a very tight urban atmosphere to a very rural atmosphere in a matter of 15-20min so I like the compact AK for the urban areas and the M1A would be nice for the rural areas.

At this point if I had to pick only one I think I would go with a Milled AK, just my .02

Now I'm going to recruit my clan, find a good place for our fortress, devise our plans to hit and secure all local food stores, gun shops, gas stations, hummer dealerships, local police supply shops for extra body armor, extra tactical supplies, extra tactical clothes, fishing shops for extra line, bait, rods, camping stores for tents, survival equipment and Barnes and Nobles for magazines on weapon reviews and books on survival techniques. (the women for procreation/daily recreation/fitness will be secured along the way).
 
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