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Alarming new trend with some CCWs

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by usmarine0352_2005, Jul 29, 2011.

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  1. usmarine0352_2005

    usmarine0352_2005 Member

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    The majority of CCW's are law-abiding citizen's who rarely have any problems with law enforcement. Recently we've been seen an alarming trend wherein someone who has a CCW keeps/carries the gun for their friend(s) who aren't allowed to CCW or are known criminals/gang-members.


    What usually happens is the CCW'er passes their gun off to his friend who isn't a CCW, that person uses the gun in a crime, and they then pass the gun back to the CCW. If the CCW'er is caught after the crime he can't be ID'd as the suspect because he didn't commit the crime and because he has a permit to carry he is lawfully possessing the firearm.


    What we are seeing is usually known gang-members with someone who is a CCW'er. Whether the gang-members recently befriended the CCW'er or have known them for a long time is unknown and different per each incident.


    One situation was where there was a fight outside of a bar. Once the fight broke up one half of the fighters stayed in front of the bar while the other half walked across the street and one man in the group (the CCW'er) took a pistol out of his car and they all started walking back to the bar where the fight had taken place and the other half of the fighters were still standing there. They got halfway across the street when they were stopped by police. A police officer had witnessed all of this from the beginning and called it out over the radio.

    The group was stopped and the man with the CCW's gun was taken for safe keeping wherein he'd be able to pick it up during business hours the next day and if there would be any charges filed. This was a mutual combatant bar fight, not one person/group being assaulted and then one half of the fight goes and gets a gun and comes back to once again confront the other party. It is hard to plead self-defense when you leave a situation and instead of calling the cops or going home come back with a gun. The other members of the group were known gang-members while the CCW'er was not. Now, this would have been a case of the CCW'er committing the criminal act if he had used the weapon or brandished it. However, it's who he was with and the act he was most likely about to commit that is unusual for most CCW'ers.



    At one time you could have an encounter with most any CCW and almost all of the time it would be a nice encounter, now you may have a legit CCW'er but who they are with might make you think differently on their intentions. Obviously you treat every situation with the utmost safety, but it is good to know about new trends in crime.


    Also, many people who are known gang-members or criminals are not actually Felons. Some of our worst criminals have many arrests and convictions and are not felons. This doesn't mean they can get CCW's, but it also means they cannot be charged with Felon in possession when they get caught with a gun.


    Law Enforcement officers need to be aware of this as we have had quite a few encounters recently with situations like this. We have a lot of armed robberies where I work and other crimes where criminals use guns.

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  2. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    Can you provide an example of this happening?
     
  3. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Member

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    What are you quoting from?

    And secondly, the situation described in the text sounds like a legally armed citizen being unlawfully disarmed by the police because they are afraid he might commit a crime in the future. I didn't realize we had reached that level of police tyranny in the United States.

    If a friend of mine got into a fight and I was not previously armed with my carry weapon because I had been inside a prohibited place (a bar), it seems like it might be a prudent thing to re-arm myself if I'm going to hang around the area. Sure, it'd be smarter to just go home, but if my friends are refusing to leave with me, maybe I'd rather be armed in case I have to come to the defense of others, as allowed by law.

    Just because my friend has previously been associated by the police with gang activity doesn't mean he can't have law-abiding friends. I don't see any concrete examples of a gun "hand-off" happening.

    Looks like an example of the "only some people should be legally allowed to arm themselves for self-defense" mentality. Sort of like the racism of "Saturday Night Special" laws.

    Aaron
     
  4. usmarine0352_2005

    usmarine0352_2005 Member

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    Grizz, as all of the current cases are still pending comments can not be made about them.





    I am not quoting from anything. I was working that night. In MN you can carry in a bar. So this patron did not carry in the bar but then went and got his gun and came back.



    Self-defense is going to be hard to prove if you go back to where a fight happened and then end up shooting the person you were in a fight with.



    Our department is very CCW friendly, so don't make assumptions like that.

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  5. Sock Puppet

    Sock Puppet Member

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    I don't know about MN's laws, but many states allow you to carry a firearm in your vehicle. Since the CCW holder is accused of handing his weapon to a friend out of his vehicle, why is it relevant that he had a CCW? Anyone can have a weapon in a car (legally or not) and hand it off. From your example, I don't see this as a CCW holder problem.
     
  6. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    Grizz, as all of the current cases are still pending comments can not be made about them.

    Pending what? If there have been people charged with some crime for doing so that is a matter of public record. A news article would be fine.
     
  7. mp510

    mp510 Member

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    It's not really a new trend or concept. That behavior has been documented in criminal elements (e.g. motorcycle gangs) for decades.
     
  8. Danb1215

    Danb1215 Member

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    You know what doesn't make concerned whatsoever? People carrying guns without a permit.....
     
  9. orionengnr

    orionengnr Member

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    Sorry, I know a number of CCW holders, and none of them hang around with scumbags.

    Stop and think about it for a minute:
    --You have subjected yourself to an fairly rigorous background check.
    --You have paid a pretty penny for your permit (here it is $140 to the state plus ~$100 to the entity conducting the required training).
    --You have paid (insert your $ here) to buy your carry pistol.

    Now you are going to put all of that (plus your personal freedom) at risk to back up some scumbag? Not really buying it without further evidence.

    If it happens in one or two circumstances (and we still have seen no evidence that it actually happens, but it is possible)...it is a self-correcting problem. Scumbag goes to prison, CCW guy loses his permit (and very likely his freedom).

    Kind of like straw purchases. Yes, it happens, but it is a < .1% problem.

    Sounds as if Chicken Little is alive and well to me.
     
  10. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    :eek: In New Hampshire, all you do is pay $20 and you get the permit within 14 days if you aren't a criminal, etc.
     
  11. David E

    David E Member

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    It's a licensed CCW holder giving his gun to a felon to use in a crime?

    Define "trend."
     
  12. Evergreen

    Evergreen Member

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    What do seasoned criminals who murder, pillage, rape and steal care about using a CCW holder to hide their criminal intentions? First of all, they can dump all their guns in a trunk. The police need a search warrant. Second of all, they can carry guns with them. Third of all, many areas that have very high murder rates, especially gun violence, are in places where CCW isn't legal at all, like Los Angeles, Wash DC, New York CIty, Chicago, etc. Really, I think one goody two shoes with a CCW rolling along with his felon-friends and acting as a coverman, isn't going to provide them any great benefits. A cop pulls over a group of felons that have a car full of weapons and one legit guy with a CCW, oh yeah right, like this isn't going to draw any attention.

    Also, a lot of other gang shootings are done with shotguns and rifles. Since, when are you allowed to conceal carry a long gun?

    Most criminals can get guns on the street. Why would they want to use a handgun in a crime that can easily trace back to themselves? A legal CCW holder would be a very easy source to trace. Especially, if he is buying loads of guns for all his homies to use in crimes. Gee, I wonder how long that would last?
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
  13. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Member

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    I'm going to try to keep this High Road, but your response honestly made me extremely angry.

    You are saying that a person who had committed no crime and was not arrested for anything whatsoever had his property confiscated by the police. That's positively unAmerican. You and your cronies on the police force don't get to decide when a law-abiding citizen gets to carry his firearm and when he doesn't, but you've apparently taken it upon yourselves to do so anyway. I hope your department gets sued and loses big.

    Your department may be "very CCW friendly" when it's the right people carrying in situations that don't make you uncomfortable, but apparently you're not Constitutional rights friendly when people have done nothing wrong other than associating with people that you have labeled as "gang members." Sounds like you're pretty similar to the cops in Canton, Ohio who don't like CCW'ers that they don't trust for whatever reason.

    As for proving self-defense, maybe it's because I'm a Kentuckian, but here in the free world, we have a saying. "A Kentuckian never retreats." If I am in a place where I have a lawful right to be and am threatened with deadly force, I have the right to use deadly force to defend myself.

    You tell me the legal difference between putting my carry piece in my pocket and leaving it there all day OR leaving it in my car, but retrieving it when I sense that the area I'm in has become more dangerous. If I don't have a duty to retreat, then my claim of self-defense is valid either way.

    If you think that "would have been a case of the CCW'er committing the criminal act if" justifies "the CCW's gun was taken for safe keeping," then with all due respect, go find yourself a communist police state to live and serve in, because we don't need you here in the United States.

    This is still a free country and we don't need cops like you.

    Aaron
     
  14. Evergreen

    Evergreen Member

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    I didn't realize this thread was started by a police officer. Sounds very anti-gun to me.. And,I must say it is alarming that some police departments feel so obliged to find excuses to criminalize our freedoms and constitutional rights. This is, IMO, a bogus thread and has no place on THR.. The antis, love to find any excuse or make up any type of crisis they can to ban our RKBA. Wasn't it not long ago that I heard law abiding AMerican citizens were supplying all the Mexican drug cartels with their grenades, rocket launches and fully automatic rifles? Oh wait a minute, it turned out that all those weapons were supplied by the US Government.. Oh yeah, American citizens (little brother) cannot even own these types of weapons. The media and antis forget to mention that too. GO figure.. And, how did law abiding American citizens get the blame for this one? Now, it is CCW allows gang members to covert their activities. Total BS..

    Just my opinion, though.
     
  15. Mags

    Mags Member

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    So what laws are being broken?

    What's to stop the gang bangers from illegaly carrying concealed themselves?

    If the legal CCW guy was in poessesion of a gun used in a crime by his gang budies wouldn't he be under investigation?
     
  16. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Member

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    "and the man with the CCW's gun was taken for safe keeping wherein he'd be able to pick it up during business hours the next day"

    Really??? Tell me the case law that allows the (illegal) seizure of property for "safe keeping" until the next day.
     
  17. TIMC

    TIMC Member

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    I'm sure that can happen but I don't think it is a nation wide epidemic. If a person loans a gun to a felon to use in the commisision of a crime they too can become a felon if the gun is linked back to them which it can through ballistics. Someone is always going to abuse the system for their own advantage but they will soon be weeded out.

    While I am sure this could and probably has happened I really doubt it is of any large scale like the OP is putting it. The post reads like a media sensationlism wolf cry to try and bring more importance to an isolated incident. It sure doesn't happen around here.
     
  18. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

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    Katrina's aftermath is one of multiple examples.

    I'm amazed your department has been able to keep this under wraps. Normally, the media would be all over something like this and you would have a plethora of news links to post.
     
  19. Cryogaijin

    Cryogaijin Member

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    Couple issues with this statement. First off, "Known criminals" are in jail. If they aren't in jail, they're innocent, or rehabilitated.

    Presumption of guilt, guilt by association, or guilt by demographic are both rampant and unconstitutional. The constitution is not a document you can pick and choose what you want to enforce; you either enforce all of it, or you get an amendment passed to change it.

    A friend of mine came >< close to getting a DV against him, by a woman that had assaulted him. Because he didn't file anything, she got the jump on him in court. If he had gotten the DV, I would have happily taken care of his guns while he attempted to get the DV overturned. He didn't get it overturned, I would have assisted him in selling said firearms.

    Things are not always as they appear, and using simple descriptions and general statements will get you into trouble more often than not.
     
  20. MyGreenGuns

    MyGreenGuns Member

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    IF this were true ..

    .. then the legal CC guy is stepping into dangerous water. If his gang banger buddy kills someone, the only linked evidence may point to him. Could he PROVE he didnt provide the weapon, knowing how it would be used? The gang kid can deny everything, its not HIS gun! In a media frenzy they would be labeled a killers. If someone were dumb enough to do that, they get what they deserve.
     
  21. Southern Rebel

    Southern Rebel Member

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    I gotta go with the same opinion as everyone else regarding the "trend". One or two instances do not make a trend. However, I do have concerns about ANYONE leaving the scene of a fight, then going to get a gun and returning to the fight scene with his buds. I have to agree with the police on disarming him until things cool down.
     
  22. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    I think this is an important point here. You may not have a duty to retreat from an area. You may have the lawful right to arm yourself. However, leaving the scene of "trouble" (like a fight), arming yourself, and retuning to the scene of ongoing or expected trouble steps beyond lawful self-defense. It certainly may put you into the role of a mutual combatant who's justification for the use of lethal force has evaporated.

    "No duty to retreat" is not the same thing as "Hey, let's get a gun and go back for another round."

    Also, giving someone else a firearm when you KNEW or had reason to know that they intended to use it in the commission of a crime (whether or not they are a prohibited person already) isn't exactly a legally sound idea. If the police observe you handing a gun to someone who then takes it into a bar and shoots someone in a bar fight, you could definitely be charged with aiding and abetting that felony assault with a deadly weapon or murder. It would be extremely hard to fight a charge of being an accomplice to that crime, if you were present at the scene of a fight, left to get a gun, and gave that weapon to one of the combatants to use in continuing the violence.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
  23. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

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    Just because someone has a CCWer does not mean you are a good guy. I think to think otherwise is silly and a bad idea.
     
  24. RUT

    RUT Member

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    >>What do seasoned criminals who murder, pillage, rape and steal care about using a CCW holder to hide their criminal intentions?<<

    My sentiments exactly! :rolleyes:
     
  25. Unistat

    Unistat Member

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    I remember hearing that OMG members often had their women carry their guns. Seems that this is similiar to that, for similiar reasons.
     
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