I Drew My CCW in Defense - long post*

[skt239]

Hello all,

I had quite the eventful thanksgiving eve and I thought I'd share it here...

The night before thanksgiving, my wife and I spent the night at my mom and dads house. It's something me and my brother (I have 2 brothers, one 26, the other 16, I was leaving with the older one) and sister have done since we moved out on our own.

Around 9pm, my mom sends my brother and I to the store for some last minute items. As we are coming around to the front of the house we notice a silver truck parked in the drive way. My brother thought it was one of the neighbors stopping by so we proceeded down the drive way.

As we approached the car I noticed a Hispanic male asleep in the drivers seat, alone. I knocked on the window and shined a bright light in his face but the driver did not budge. All the sudden, he sprung up, startled and began fumbling for something under his seat. He began to raise something black so I drew my gun and began screaming for him to drop his what I assumed was a gun.

The driver began speaking to me in Spanish and kept trying to get out of the car and I kept pushing the door shut and telling him to stay in the car. He kept showing me it was only a phone but I could careless. I told my brother to call the police while I held the driver at gun point.

Inside the house was my pregnant wife, mother, nieces (age 5 & 8), their mother (my sister) and my 16 year old brother. They had heard me yell for the driver to drop his gun, so naturally they assumed he had a gun and called the police. My mother yelled our from a window that we should come inside because the cops were on the way. Seconds later we can hear the sirens in the distance. And we begin to head inside.

While all this is going on, my father is just a few minutes away at the VW dealer, exciting to show us his brand new ride. Within less than 2 min of us going in the house, the entire house is swarmed with cops and a helicopter is hovering over head.

My father drives up (still no clue what's going on) and is pulled out of his car, handcuffed and thrown in the back of a police cruiser. The police then take custody of the trespasser and throw him in a car.

At this point, my brother and I decided we should go outside and begin explaining what's going on. I take my gun, knife and flash light and put them in my parents safe and head out the door.

We both walk out with our hands up and are immediately grabbed by two cops holding Kevlar shields and pointing Sigs. They throw us to the ground and with a boots on our backs, we are cuffed and dragged (literally) over to the cars. Although I expected it to happen, I was still terrified.

Everyone was carrying M-4's and Mossbergs. Each time I tried to explain what was going on I was told to "shut the F up". Thankfully a nice female cop spoke to my wife and mother who explained what had happened. We were uncuffed, apologized too and released.

It turns out the driver was an illegal and high on smack or pain killers. The police also found a few knives, prying bar and some possibly stolen merchandise. The police never asked me about the gun, I was just told to stay in the house and wait for the police next time.

My mother did tell the officer I had a gun that was secured before the police arrived. The officer asked to see it, my mother declined and that was that.

I have no idea why he was there and that had a lot with how I reacted. Did he just pull over because he was nodding out and needed to rest? Was he planning to break in and was so high he didn't realize everyone was home and it was not even passed 10pm?

I'm sure I made plenty of mistakes and understanding I'm opening myself up to all sorts of criticism and possibly ridicule. I know that as soon as I saw he was passed out in the car, I should have gone inside, locked the doors and called the police. By trying to wake him up to get him to leave, I put myself and family in danger. Truthfully, I didn't want a confrontation, I mainly wanted to get my car that he was block out of the driveway.

Here are some details..

- I was carrying a S&W 637 with a crimson trace laser
- I was carrying in a custom made pancake holster with no retention under a zipped up hoodie.
- The flash light was a Fenix E11

Things I learned...

- The crimson trace is more than a great training tool. I knew exactly where my gun was pointing and so did the intruder.
- I managed to draw my gun quickly and seamlessly, in a stressful situation from under a cover garment that had to be lifted up. According to my brother, the gun just appeared out of no where. Practice pays.
- Having a flashlight is a must. It helped me control the trespasser because he was pretty much blind.

So, that's my story. Sorry for the long post. I look forward to your replies.

Thanks.

 

[guitarguy314]

Wow. That's quite a thanksgiving. I'm glad everyone is okay. Thanks for sharing.

I do have to say though, If I was handcuffed and dragged after stepping out of a residence like you were, I'd be ridiculously angry. Why did they cuff you and treat you so forcefully?

 

[bikemobile]

Interesting that you were cuffed and dragged. Seems a little heavy handed. If the guy in the driveway was alone, cooperative and in custody i dont see why you needed to be roughed up. I might complain on that one.

The guy in the truck was probably drunk and pulled in to your driveway to pass out.

Call the cops, lock the door and let them do their thing outside. When they knock on the door then go outside.

 

[M-Cameron]

Interesting that you were cuffed and dragged. Seems a little heavy handed. If the guy in the driveway was alone, cooperative and in custody i dont see why you needed to be roughed up. I might complain on that one.

at first reading that i thought it was a bit harsh also....but look at it from the polices point of view.

they received what ide imagine must have been a frantic call reporting a guy with a gun, and most likely didnt get a good description....setting them on high alert and making everyone on the scene a potential threat.

for all they could have known, you could have been the guy they were called about and you could have killed everyone in the house and are coming out to fight the responding officers.

 

[thefish]

The driver began speaking to me in Spanish and kept trying to get out of the car and I kept pushing the door shut and telling him to stay in the car. He kept showing me it was only a phone but I could careless. .

I am quite intrested to hear from others more knowledgable than I the legal ramifications of keeping a weapon trained on the man when clearly no deadly threat was obvious.

Glad it worked out in the end.

 

[guitarguy314]

I can understand the officers being nervous, but still...

I can understand all of the horrible if's...

but he came out of the house with
- hands raised
- not covered in blood or wearing a suit of human skin
- Not shouting about how rosie o'donnel made him do it etc.

Guns in the face and boots in the back seem like a bit much to me.

of course, I'm not nor have I ever been a LEO, so this is all opinion.

 

[smalls]

I am quite intrested to hear from others more knowledgable than I the legal ramifications of keeping a weapon trained on the man when clearly no deadly threat was obvious.

It wasn't obvious, he said the man sprang up from his nap and went for something under his seat. I would have assumed gun, too. Who keeps their cell phone under the seat?

 

[skt239]

I am quite intrested to hear from others more knowledgable than I the legal ramifications of keeping a weapon trained on the man when clearly no deadly threat was obvious.

Glad it worked out in the end.

I will answer this first. Like the other poster said, he reached for something either under his seat, or on the floor. I imagine the cell phone was on his lap and when he sprang up it fell on the floor. He fumbled with it before he finally had it in his hand. Between the fumbling he kept trying to get out of the car and I kept pushing the door shut. All I knew at the time was a very confused, obviously intoxicated stranger was trying to come at me with an object I was yet to identify.

As for the cops, I didn't enjoy the treatment but I completely understand the heavy handed approach in retrospect. It was a confusing situation and the only information they had was from a hysterical woman's 911 call. I'm just glad they didn't rough up my father.

Thanks for all the replies and well wishes fellas.

 

[thefish]

Right. But my question lies with once you identified it as a cellphone, not a deadly weapon putting you in grave danger, were you justified in detaining him with potentially deadly force?. You said you saw it was only a cellphone, but didn't care. Don't get me wrong.

I'm not secondguessing you or saying you were in the wrong. And you were there, not US. It just brings up an interesting question. Similar to the black Friday punch in the facer thread. there are some intresting responses there.

Clearly if it was an illegal who was Dui, that's one thing. But what if it was some guy who drove all night pulled over in an exhausted state into what he thought was a quiet driveway, to shut his eyes for a fer minutes and fell asleep. Course there are a million "what if,". I'm just wondering if legally you were in the right. I'm new to ccw and obviously there are many many different situations all with a significant number of different outcomes depending on many variables.

Just trying to learn. Obviously deescalation without anyone getting shot is ideal. But in the same Tolkien I've heard that if you draw, you need to use it, or it could be argued that you didn't, t need to draw in the first place.

Again, I'm not suggesting you were in the wrong, but more interested in the legality.

 

[Centurian22]

Wow. Thank you very much for sharing this experience. It has made me think of a specific potential threat situation that I have not yet considered and allowed me to analyse and learn what I should and shouldn't do. I agree with others that calling the police upon first sight of the unknown man in thr vehicle, moving to the house first, cautiously entering confirming everyone / everything was ok and 'uncompromised' then locking the doors would be the preferred course of action. But I must say, without you sharing this and giving me the opportunity to assess the situation from the comfort and safety of my chair, as opposed to being thrown into it as you were, I would probably have proceeded in much the same way.

Again thanks for sharing and good luck in dealing with the emotional aftermath of this stressful encounter.

 

[Inebriated]

I don't think you did the right thing AT ALL, but I think you did about what I would have done... and that is to make sure my family is safe. If the guy was conscious, I'd be a little more worried about what's going on IN the house, but some guy passed out in the driveway needs to stay in the driveway. But I do think it would have been best to get into the house, check everyone, then call police and monitor the guy.

I am interested in thefish's question as well, though. I think it's justified in that you didn't know what he had in the truck. You thought it was a gun, you acted as such. But I want to know the legalities of keeping a person at gun-point until police arrive. Obviously it's a dangerous move to keep the gun out when police arrive, but I've heard multiple cases where that's what got the guy caught. Hell, the recent American Rifleman mag has a story about a guy that kept an intruder at gun-point in his house until police arrived and did their thing. So it seems as though it could get... hairy.

 

[Arp32]

I appreciate your willingness to put this story up for discussion (and Monday morning quarterbacking...)!

Trying to imagine the same situation happening in my driveway... I think my point of departure would have been not to approach the car in the first place, and especially not so assertively. It's really putting yourself into the situation in a way that could easily cause a variety of unexpected outcomes (guy in the truck is drunk thinking he's at his own driveway and you're robbing him, guy is lost thinking and sees you as the aggressor, guy is a criminal and thinks you're a cop after seeing the flashlight...). I think I'd scoot indoors and turn on a bunch of lights, or keep driving. Either way I'd call the cops and let them sort it out. Call me cheap, but I want to get some value out if my taxes.

Seriously though I am glad it worked out ok for you. Unlike the others, I guess I am not so surprised that the responding officers were so forceful in establishing control of the situation. I've been in a situation where the police responded to a reported gunshot and a neighbor pointed to my residence. Long story short (so I don't derail your thread), but the responding officers were similarly aggressive in gaining control until they were satisfied I wasn't involved. I didn't appreciate being put on the ground either, but I understand the logic of cuffing everyone until you can sort things out.

 

[Arp32]

By the way, good on your mom for not letting them in to search your house or take your handgun. She had some presence of mind there.

 

[Ehtereon11B]

I'll play devil's advocate on this one. As LEOS we are trained to secure a situation before knowing the details, especially if a firearm is involved. Not knowing the situation, the officers were right (in a way) to control everyone in the area. Although I would have done it in a much different way than giving you a close encounter with your own drive way. As hair brained as a situation that was, glad to hear you and your family came out on top. There are lots of ways it could have gone south.

 

[smalls]

I've heard that if you draw, you need to use it, or it could be argued that you didn't, t need to draw in the first place.

No way. You need to research the laws more before you carry again.

If you're justified in drawing your weapon, that may be enough to deter further attack. Once the attack has stopped, you STOP AND DO NOT SHOOT.

A lot can happen in a fraction of a second

 

[Rexster]

OK, a guy is sleeping inside a vehicle, in a driveway that is not his. That tells me he was either drunk, or extremely tired. Things like this happen quite frequently. Better to have, first and immediately, checked on the family, left him alone, and called police. I hope you realize that by now.

Tapping and knocking, while shining a light; well, OK, that accomplished the mission of awakening the sleeper, but if he starts reaching for something, and trying to open the door, the normal and proper tactical response is NOT not to hold the door shut, and try to HOLD HIM AT GUNPOINT! Had his phone been a firearm, the person holding the door shut is presenting the perfect target, particularly if a raised arm was holding the door shut. (I hope all of my future assailants present me with such a perfect target.)

Holding folks at gunpoint has been cussed and discussed at length here, in previous threads, so I will
limit this part to a few sentences. This is quite perilous enough for an armored police officer, in a
position of tactical advantage, with good hard cover, and a radio to direct back-up to his location. I
recommend private citizens NOT hold bad guys at gunpoint. I recommend the same for off-the-clock
and plain-clothed LEOs, unless the the bad guy's crime really and truly merits the risk.

The police response to your situation may well may been influenced by neighbors calling, who may have had no idea what was really happening, describing you as the bad guy. Perhaps, the sleepy bad guy, himself, managed to dial 911, and described you as the bad guy. A 911 dispatcher has no magic way of sorting through the conflicting information; it is all passed along, unfiltered, to responding
officers.

Example: In the pre-dawn hours of this past Thanksgiving morning, an off-duty officer calls dispatch to report that he has detained two females, whose car had just crashed into a business. A citizen, identifying himself as a lawyer, calls police and reports, at the same address, two girls being kidnapped by an armed male suspect. Which was the truth? Well, an intoxicated female teen had indeed collided with a building, simply because she was drunk. The off-the-clock officer detained the driver and passenger. The first of the two calls was accurate.

Please understand; I am very glad that you and your family were not hurt, and went on to enjoy the rest of your Thansgiving gathering! When one of my trainees does something tactically incorrect, that could have gotten us hurt, I am doing us both a disservice if I say that he/she performed well. Same here.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Interesting that you were cuffed and dragged. Seems a little heavy handed.

The police were responding to a "guy with a gun" call. At that point Job Number 1 became "make sure no one shoots anyone else". If that involves cuffing everyone they see, so be it. Everyone survived, and not shots were fired. They did the right thing.

 

[bigfatdave]

I've heard that if you draw, you need to use it, or it could be argued that you didn't, t need to draw in the first place.

No.
Where did you hear this nonsense? Stop listening to whatever source provided it.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

The lesson for me here is to move to a safe location one can view the vehicle from and call in the LEOs.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'm sure I made plenty of mistakes and understanding I'm opening myself up to all sorts of criticism and possibly ridicule.

Yep.

The first one was this:

I kept pushing the door shut and telling him to stay in the car.

That could have resulted in your arrest, trial, and conviction for a crime.

And combined with your pointing a gun at him, it could also have given him reason to believe that you presented an imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm to him. That and the likely fact that he had not been committing a felony could have resulted in a successful defense of justification on his part, had he shot you.

Another was posting the account in a public forum. Please take the time to read the rules of the forum, and this sticky.

I do not want to appear to be singling you out here. Everyone should read and heed the following:

The ST&T Rules sticky contains the following:

Everyone who posts here or anywhere else on the Internet should understand that such posts are permanent, and they may be subject to discovery in legal proceedings at any time in the future. Should any member ever find himself or herself involved in such proceedings, posts containing comments that could be interpreted unfavorably could prove damaging.

You do not want to publish anything ... where it may be made available to plaintiffs and investigators, that you should more properly tell only to an attorney in confidence in a privileged legal communication.
For those who may not be well versed in the reasons behind this, some additional explanation my be helpful.

First, everyone should understand that if one posts in a public forum on the Internet for anyone in the world with Internet access to read, or when one sends a company email for that matter, one can have no expectation of privacy. Second, electronic postings can be and have been traced back to the originator, authenticated, and used both to facilitate further investigations and as evidence. One's computer may be seized, or subpoenas may be issued to others. Also, investigators can use search engines as well as anyone else.

There are two kinds of situations in which a statement made on the Internet or put in email or posted on one of the various social networks can come back to haunt the originator.

The first involves posts of the "this happened to me" genre. If an incident that could lead to an investigation and/or additional legal proceedings has occurred, anything said about it on the Internet could either be used as evidence or to lead investigators to other facts or information that could be used as evidence that could prove damaging to the originator. For that reason, it is very important to exercise caution in terms of what one posts.

This can apply to either criminal or civil proceedings or both.

It is important to understand that the risks involved may even apply in cases that have not yet been pursued by law enforcement. A statement such as "I drew my gun and told him to get off my property" may be all that is needed to start or provide additional evidence for an investigation that might otherwise have gone nowhere.

In case it is not understood by some, the fact that the investigation of an incident appears to have been "closed" does not mean that the actor is free of risk. A statement by an officer that one "did the right thing", or even a decision by a prosecutor or grand jury to not pursue charges, is not a guarantee against further action. For one thing, new persons may replace others. More importantly, however, new evidence can be brought to light, and a posting here or anywhere on the Internet may just be the thing to make that happen.

I recommend reading Rexter's post #16. It is excellent advice. So is that of 76shuvlinoff in Post #20.