Alzheimer's & Firearms

[JohnBT]

There are dozens of kinds of dementia.

My mother has been through all of the seven stages of what is called Alzheimer's. It started 10 years ago or so, she was really upset/lost in 2005-2007. Now she just sits in the wheelchair at the nursing home and shakes. She chews and swallows if you feed her. She hasn't known me or what state she lives in since 2005.

She quit driving when she couldn't find the keys even though they were in her purse. She thought she drove for years. She quit walking years ago, but said she walked a lot everyday and would tell you where she went.

The middle stages are when they'll do stuff like take the wet clothes out of the washer and carry them the length of the house and hand the entire sopping armload mess of them to you. And make a drink in a mason jar from stuff in the garage.

My father had guns. My mother couldn't find the closet. She did remember that she had her father's I.J. .32 in the cedar chest. They were moving to The Home and my father had given me his guns, so she went and got one we didn't know she had.

It can only be diagnosed with an autopsy, but everybody uses Alzheimer's as a catch-all.

www.alz.org/alzheimers_disease_stag...es_02&gclid=CKHF8vGnuaoCFQbe4AodNGkJDg#stage1

 

[scythefwd]

we took the guns when grandpa broke a nurses nose and the tried to clear the jam on the comb he had pointed at my dad. he was lucid durnig the day, but sundowning was hell.

 

[Yeager]

This is a nation of 300+ million people. There's a reason why anecdotal evidence is not accepted when it comes to establishing general policy.

Yet when a member of society proves that they can't handle the responsibility it's often decided to take away "rights" from everyone in society to prevent a repeat of such action how ever slim the chance of a repeat is. We learn from the past or we are doomed to repeat it as the saying goes.

Something gun owners who rave at the top of their lungs about "liberals" taking their guns when their guns need to be controlled with common sense gun laws to prevent more tragedies from happening don't seem to grasp.

Yes, I'm for taking guns away from people who are diagnosed with such an illness.

That's my position, and you're not going to change my mind with trendy posters telling me that the "mentally disabled" shouldn't be disarmed after so many tragedies have been committed by "mentally disabled" people with easy access to guns in this country.

 

[scythefwd]

After reading through this thread, I turned to my wife and told her that the moment I am diagnosed with Alzheimers, we get rid of every gun. They get passed to family or friends or sold, but that will be the case.

 

[M-Cameron]

here are my feelings on the topic....

its pretty simple....

Dangerous things should be allowed in the hands of those who lack the physical or mental capacity to handle and use them safely.......regardless of what ailments you may or may not have

if you cant drive a car safely....you shouldnt drive.
if you cant handle a gun safely...you shouldnt handle guns.
heck, if you cant boil an egg safely....you shouldnt boil eggs.

now if you have Alzheimers, suffer from mental retardation, are on 400mG of morphine an hour, ect.......and you can handle a gun safely......why shouldnt you be able to own a gun?

 

[Shadow 7D]

Somethings that seems to be missed by some here

Alzheimers and most Dementias are Progressive Degenerative Diseases
That means the get worse and there is no cure, or even stopping it. Rather the best you can hope for is to slow it and to maximize the 'good' times.

So, the gist of this is that estate planning etc. and removing the guns should be done BEFORE they get paranoid and their mental AND emotional states degenerate. Of course that means you have to face that your parent is dying.

 

[gearhead]

My dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's when he was 67. As someone pointed out, they can't technically diagnose Alzheimer's until an autopsy is performed but they can run tests to eliminate all the other possibilities. It's not something I'd wish on my worst enemy, with the confusion comes fear and fear can make even the most mild-mannered person dangerous. Their mind becomes a dark, scary, unfamiliar world and you never know what will trigger a reaction. I was in college when he was diagnosed, my older brother came and got the old revolver but my mom kept the .22 rifle that was in the closet. In retrospect, that wasn't the smartest thing.

 

[Hardtarget]

My father in law had this dementia problem and we worked through it for ten years. About half way through it they sent all guns to me. He has been gone for five years and my brother in law still doesn't want the guns...so I dove hunt with the Winchester 12 ga. SxS. Its a nice memory of him.

Mark

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It can only be diagnosed with an autopsy, but everybody uses Alzheimer's as a catch-all.

Yes, I'm for taking guns away from people who are diagnosed with such an illness.

No comment. None needed.

 

[jimmertoons]

My father in law had this dementia problem and we worked through it for ten years. About half way through it they sent all guns to me. He has been gone for five years and my brother in law still doesn't want the guns...so I dove hunt with the Winchester 12 ga. SxS. Its a nice memory of him.

Mark

My FIL is currently in a Alzheimers home. Unfortunately, my MIL and SIL are both liberal anti-gunners. They turned his guns over to the police to be distroyed, including his match 22. He shared his stories about that gun with my son and myself several years ago. It is a shame to lose that family history.

 

[M-Cameron]

My FIL is currently in a Alzheimers home. Unfortunately, my MIL and SIL are both liberal anti-gunners. They turned his guns over to the police to be distroyed, including his match 22. He shared his stories about that gun with my son and myself several years ago. It is a shame to lose that family history.

AHHH!!!

now i dont know how everyone else feels about their match guns...but to me they are Extremely personal......kind of like a sword to a samurai.

the least the could have done would be to remove the bolt or firing pin.....and leave the man at least something.

 

[lloveless]

Vern Humphrey, sir you are reading too much into this discussion. As a nurse of 41 years I've seen the agony families go through with the aging and loss of function. I agree it is the families responsibility to recognize that their loved ones are no longer competent. At this time a discussion with the Elder is needed. Will the Elder remember the discussion? That is an individual thing. As long as an Elder lives by themselves, they should have the ability to defend themselves. When no longer able to care for themselves it is time to go to a family home or a nursing home sans car, or firearms.
IMHO
ll

 

[Shadan7]

Shadow 7D: So, the gist of this is that estate planning etc. and removing the guns should be done BEFORE they get paranoid and their mental AND emotional states degenerate. Of course that means you have to face that your parent is dying.

I think that is the crux of the matter right there, and why I raised it: we have to plan ahead when dealing with the reality of mortality and/or failing mental ability.

I don't think it needs to be a legalistic approach, though there are some cases where it is appropriate to have either a Will or a Durable Power of Attorney available. But it needs to be discussed beforehand, so the wishes of the firearm owner are clearly understood, well before it can become a problem.

 

[thorazine]

Most old timers at the ranges I have been to in the past usually shoot one round every thirty minutes for they are busy chit chatting with their range buddies.

So no real threat there.

 

[gym]

My uncle passed on 2 years ago, he was an avid gunsmith, competition shooter, with trap, skeet and 22, and 45 caiber pistols, a Marine and head of operations of Eastern Airlines. He came down when I married in FL, which was a shock to me. But he had pulled me on the side and told me that he was selling all his guns, "no one knows for sure how many there were", but it was a shock as we would speak once or twice a year, and he was always asking me if I come across this or that to let him know. He had still been on me to sell him the browning 22 I had up until the wedding But he didn't want what happend when his pal the chief of police passed away, "they were finding guns he had stashed all over the house for years.I didn't realize at the time that he already had known he had the disease and was planning ahead, selling the guns to his friends for what they were worth. It really didn't surface for maybe 10 more years, to where he didn't know who anyone was. I realized that he had been preparing for when that would happen. He only wanted a 38 revolver in the house for his wife to have for emergencys.I think that you would get enough warning "being an intelligent person", to realize that you were getting to the point when an illness starts to get severe enough to significantlly change your daily life.
You and those close to you will see a chnge in time to plan for this terrible disease, you don't just wake up one day and get it, it's a process.

 

[PolymathPioneer]

First of all, how many people with Alzheimer's have committed crimes or had accidents with guns?

Until we know that, we're in the old anti-gun position of, "Well, it could happen!"

AD people are generally not aggressive (unless there is another comorbidity). They have short term memory challenges initially and do not intentionally exhibit (let alone express aggressive) behavior. I am a medicinal chemist and have worked to develop therapeutic compounds for AD and also had relatives who had it (they generally die of complications due to AD as the brain slowly fails not AD itself, for example not knowing to urinate and getting a general infection that goes far beyond a urinary track infection and becomes septic). Based on my experience, the real problem with AD and firearms is forgetting to apply the rules associated with safe firearm handling in my opinion. This is no different than the issue of driving an automobile and a person who has AD (driving and AD is worse because taking the keys away removes one of the few things left that an older person has, which is the freedom to have mobility). I have observed an instance where someone with AD drove down the wrong side of the rode into traffic with grandchildren in the vehicle.

 

[Owen Sparks]

This is the tip of a very dangerous wedge that could lead to a maxium age for firearms ownership. If for example, they can prohibit people under 21 from owning a handgun what is to stop them from prohibiting people over 65 from owning handguns?

We really do not need the government setting an arbitrary maximum age for gun ownership because it will be set for the lowest common denominator, the age at which SOME people become incompitent.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I'm not sure whether my father had AD or whether several mini strokes did the damage. The result was the same. The room he stayed in most of the time had a gun rack with several guns a few feet from his chair. He never displayed any sign of aggression or paranoia. I was there every day and never thought about the guns. Saw no indication that he did either. They had always been there.

There is nothing new about this. And, we certainly don't need some new law and more government employees to pay to enforce it.

So, let the family members decide what is appropriate for their circumstance. If removing the guns makes you more comfortable because of something you see or sense, do it.

 

[revjen45]

"This is the tip of a very dangerous wedge that could lead to a maxium age for firearms ownership. If for example, they can prohibit people under 21 from owning a handgun what is to stop them from prohibiting people over 65 from owning handguns?"

I turned 64 this summer. I work as a Manufacturing Engineering Planner on airliners, a position requiring good cognition. It is unlikely that upon my next birthday my mind will suddenly shut down and someone will have to wrest away the keys to the car, my stroker Sportster, and my guns. The point at which AD becomes disabling is different for everyone, and assuming that everybody gets it at some given age (or at all) is false. I intend to enjoy the prerogatives of a free adult for the rest of my life, or at least as long as possible. e.g. The aforementioned Sportster requires some physical abilities to ride, so it is self-limiting.

 

[Slamfire]

Friend of mine, father in law came down with Alzheimer’s. Weird obsessive behaviors came out early. He was a wounded combat veteran. One day, after he “playfully” aimed a service pistol at a cringing granddaughter, the sane adults in the room decided that maybe Grand Dad did not need his guns.

 

[vaupet]

My dad is in a vegetative state since the age of 70 due to alzheimer.
I know for sure, that when I get diagnosed, nobody has to take away anything from me, because there is a USP 9mm to cure me, right under the walnut tree in my backyard.

 

[scythefwd]

vaupet - my father, who watched both his grandfather and his dad start with Alzheimers and continue into dementia (his dad was violent) has both a firearm and a round picked out as well as a pact with my stepmom to end it. She has the same thing....

 

[Maia007]

Mister Mikes post reminds me of our family's experience with our father. He did not have AD but another (worse) form of dementia. And, as others have pointed out, some forms of dementia can extend well beyond mere benign "forgetfulness".

And yes, we removed the firearms from the household at a certain point when his deterioration of his faculties and his resulting behavior demanded reasonable and appropriate safeguards.

I want to emphasize that our family made the decision, not the government, not the health care providers, nor anyone else. The situation got past the point where my father's "rights" as his own man were at issue and it became a matter of how best to insure the safety of my mother and others involved in his care. In my mind, that's what is necessary, reasonable and prudent where a clear and present danger presents itself. Exercising one's rights assumes the capability to make rational decisions, after all.

I believe that all of us are capable enough of stepping up to make these kinds of decisions when they need to be made. Faced with the same problem, most of you would do it identically. And no one else needs to butt in and legislate the terms and conditions of decision for us.

 

[Shienhausser]

I forgot what this thread is about....

 

[JohnBT]

Not funny. Do you make jokes about people dying of cancer?