Am I the only person who likes Rock River Arms?

[Jon Coppenbarger]

which rock river arms rifles do you own in canada and have first hand experience with?
since I have personal experience with them and have gone threw several barrels with the only broken parts being a couple of gas rings which did not cause the weapon to stop I would like to find out where you are getting your personal experiences.

If you do not have any experience or proof which you have not yet provided after many requests why don't you just go back to your gaming sites as you have no experience in this field.

 

[SwampWolf]

Don't claim to have actual knowledge of something and then act like you are to important to actually share that knowledge.

You've got to be kidding! This is all you've done throughout the whole thread.

RRA builds two categories of rifles. They build rifles for the government, and they build rifles for civilians, and they are not built to the same specs, using the same parts.

Once again, more hyperbole. At the risk of sounding like a broken record: Where is the evidence for this allegation? In all seriousness, if true, I'd really like to know.

 

[kwelz]

Actually I have pointed out exactly why I don't like RRA rifles. They are more concerned with "Fit and finish" than function. No Chrome lining, No MPI testing, lesser quality barrel steel, etc, etc, etc.

Sure it will look pretty but so can a Kia.

 

[Artiz]

He has a habit of down playing some brands and no doubt sells other brands, does it on other postings also...

You probably don't know that, but the AR-15 in my closet is an RRA (lower receiver). And I don't sell other brands (nor do I have a habit of downplaying other brands)... I just have a lot of knowledge on firearms. And there is no doubt on this neither. (facepalm)

 

[Welding Rod]

Artiz - Chrome lining is available on every chromoly barrel RRA sells. You get no chrome if you order it that way.

It what way is function lessened by RRA's choice of barrel steel alloy? And what makes you say the quality of the barrel steel is lower? Does it have inclusions? Laminations? What? That claim sounds awful hard to substantiate.

 

[Welding Rod]

Here are some groups from RRA barrels:

100 yards 1" for 5:


A few random groups at 100 and 200 yards with match and bargain white box ammo:


200 Yards 15/16" for 5:


200 Yards 1 7/16" for 10:


500 Yards 3 7/8" for 5:

 

[kwelz]

4150 Steel > 4140 steel. Especially in High pressure, high heat environments.

Yes you can order a RRA with Chrome lining and a few other features they don't have on the off the shelf models. However by the time you do that you are paying more than you would for a BCM, LMT, etc and still don't have the MPI test better barrel steel, and all that. So why not just get the other to start with?

 

[Welding Rod]

The "inferior" metal seems to shoot.

Those A2 and "A4" groups above are from RRA chrome lined chromoly barrels.

I have yet to hear a single case of one of the 150,000 some-odd guns they sold over the last 10 years having a barrel failure due to its selected alloy.

RRA has no "off the shelf models". Every RRA is built to order. Some distributors may order their inventory without chrome, but that is their choice.

Why order a RRA? They are a good value. Tight fit, good barrels, and good clean light triggers all out of the box. Straight sight towers. Rear sights that sit square with bore centerline. Good quality furniture. Excellent NM sights available. Tons of options, lifetime warranty, and made to order. And they usually sell well under MSRP.

They wouldn't be my first choice for a M4, but for other models there is alot to be said for them, IMO. But then a M4 wouldn't be my first choice of a carbine either. I like a mid-length.

They aren't the end all. I recently bought a BCM myself for contingency use. And I can't image why after all these years RRA still can't seem to get gas key staking right, but RRAs are still my favorite range guns for most shooting.

 

[TheGrimReaper]

I got a RR Tactical Entry and love the rifle.

 

[jem375]

Amusing, he criticizes RRA's but has one that he bought.. with all that so called knowledge you would think he wouldn't go out and buy one...

 

[Handgunner]

Amusing, he criticizes RRA's but has one that he bought.. with all that so called knowledge you would think he wouldn't go out and buy one...

I guess he didn't see the chart.

 

[kwelz]

RRA has no "off the shelf models". Every RRA is built to order. Some distributors may order their inventory without chrome, but that is their choice.

Sorry I have to call BS on this one. Why you ask? Because I used to be a distributor for RRA and what you said is wrong. RRA has standard configurations, if you want something different you have to specify that on the order and it adds a lot of time to the order.

 

[happygeek]

*Shrug* I've got a Rock River Arms lower on a CMMG 22LR upper. Thing's got well over 2,000 rounds through it since me and the wife got it about a year ago. My only complaint with the Rock River lower is that it would have looked cool if they'd put a fake Auto label next to the safety switch and labeled the Fire one Semi instead.

 

[Group9]

Don't claim to have actual knowledge of something and then act like you are to important to actually share that knowledge.

And, your knowledge comes from where?

All right, but it will piss you off. DEA, at the time being the largest owner of Colt rifles in law enforcement, asked Colt to provide some pretty normal service after the sale, (new magazines for the huge inventory of 9mm SMGs DEA was issuing at the time). Based on those negotiations, DEA decided that there were tired of dealing with Colt as an almost sole source supplier and decided to do see what other comparable brands were out there (DEA was already buying some H&K 53's, but wasn't happy with the H&K safety and trying to incorporate it into their training protocol).

Instead of going to experts such as yourself on the internet, they decided to try something novel-to take all of the major brands of AR's and similar .223 platforms, and test them to objectively see which ones suited DEA's law enforcement needs the most.

The result were three guns passing the tests, Rock River, Colt and Sigarms. Dissatisfaction with Colt's service after the sale already being the reason for doing all fo the testing, and the Sigs being a slightly different platform that would require lots of new training, the people making the decision at the FTU, unanimously picked the Rock River as the rifle they wanted to buy and put into service. Federal contracting rules being what they are, Colt and Sigarms, also got contracts (which as previously noted, are not contracts in the traditional sense as you might think, but rather options to buy at a particular price, something the federal government does with everything from bullets, to pencils to tires). It doesn't mean, as many people like you seem to think, that DEA was obligated to, or in fact did (as far as Colts and Sigarms), buy any guns under any of the contracts.

Now as far as off the shelf being the same rifles DEA gets, I admit I have no idea. I know I have one of both, and they sure seem to be the same quality, and sure shoot the same (and yeah, I have a Colt AR, too).

Now unlike your stuff, does this really sound like something I pulled out of my ass?

 

[kwelz]

Here is the rifle the DEA purchased.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=214

Here is the normal Off the shelf RRA Carbine
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=217

These are not the same rifle. And I am not just talking about the stupid markup they have on the Government model. But even with the upgrades they put on the Government model it still has a number of failings.

Looks I am not saying that RRA completely sucks. What I am saying is that they cut to many corners and ask way to much for what they deliver. It is fine for a range toy or light use. But I would not have one that I put thousands of rounds through in short period of time.

If I am going to pay 1K or a rifle it is not going to be one without Chrome, without a 1/7 barrel, without the proper testing done, etc. I could build a BCM for cheaper or buy a Colt for about the same.

 

[kwelz]

After I wrote the above I got to thinking about the stupidly high price on that rifle so I went and built one. I don't know Where the hell they are getting that price.

BCM upper with bolt is 550

Complete lower will run you about 350 (Cheaper if you build yourself)

A DD rail will run you 179 right now and it is FAR better than that crap on the DEA rifle. But heck even go with a Troy DI for 150.

That light is outdated but usable so about 400 for that. Although there are much better an
less expensive options.

Add a good BUIS for 100

Finally a 552 runs about 475 right now.


So you are looking at about 2K for a much better Carbine even using the outdated and overpriced accessories they used. How the hell are they justifying 2400 for that thing!

 

[boricua9mm]

Here is the rifle the DEA purchased.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=214

Here is the normal Off the shelf RRA Carbine
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=217

These are not the same rifle. And I am not just talking about the stupid markup they have on the Government model. But even with the upgrades they put on the Government model it still has a number of failings.

You're comparing RRA's version of a 'tricked out rifle" to a plain old Entry Tactical. The DEA model is available to civilians and has been since its inception. Compare apples to apples. The DEA model that is sold to civilians uses their regular LAR-15 rifle as a base and has an obvious set of options, but these are modular add-ons, not functional upgrades. You have to remember that we are talking about a rifle that was spec'd out years ago. Daniel Defense and Troy weren't even making rails back then. They weren't even on the map. Sure, we can pick it apart nowadays, and there are better options available, but that has nothing to do with the DEA contract or RRA's success in that realm.

A civilian can go and buy the DEA model and it is the same rifle that is sold to the DEA themselves. There is no "extra care" put into contract rifles and the items in the chart don't magically appear b/c they are built for said contract. Again, I would love to see evidence that the DEA contract rifle is different from the same DEA model that is sold to civilians. I gave a breakdown of parts and suppliers. Do you have this info that can back up your claim that the contract rifles are somehow superior or on another level than their civie products?

I suspect that you have an axe to grind with Rock River for one reason or another, and that's fine. I have many opinions/reservations about certain companies, dealers, etc. However, you can't just go making claims without supporting facts that can be cited.

For the record, I think RRA has priced themselves out of the market. I've been following them for the past 10 years and they've gone from $700 to $1K for a basic rifle. Then again, you may not have been around ARs since the ABC-R days, so you might not have noticed the changes. I wouldn't buy one at the current prices, but that doesn't mean that the rifles are so vastly inferior or that the DEA contract success was some sort of a hoax.

What's this? The FBI now wants RRA's .40 Carbines? *Gasp* But what about the chart!!! Rock River sucks, don't they know!?

 

[Welding Rod]

Why do I so frequently regret posting on internet forums?

If you want a 1:7 twist, it is available. With chrome. PK had an RRA upper for sale so equipped a few weeks ago.

Yes they have "standard configurations" listed on the pages of their catalogue, along with an entire catalogue of options and parts available for for every one of them. Standard configuration, options, or not, "All rifles are made to order". That is according to Steve Mayer at Rock River.

There is a line of "Gov / LE guns". The only difference I am aware of is some of them come with a standard milspec heavy gritty trigger, instead of the nice 2-stage "NM" trigger. Of course you can order any gun with a standard milspec heavy gritty trigger if that is what you want. Or order one outright for $35.

 

[kwelz]

And even once you order those barrels, and pay more for them, and wait forever for them, they will still not be MPI tested nore parked under the FSB.

I never said they were not available. I said they were not available on the off the shelf models. There is not a single RRA stock model that includes Chrome lining or a 1/7 twist.

 

[Welding Rod]

Oh my.

I think I am speechless.

 

[basicblur]

THE CHART, THE CHART (in my best Tatoo voice)

But what about the chart!!! Rock River sucks, don't they know!?

Tell me about it-I own 2 of the damn things (along with a couple of Colts)! :banghead:
Many moons ago I thought I was complementing THE CHART (you are all now permitted...nay-REQUIRED to pause and perform the obligatory bow to THE CHART!), by saying while it made for interesting reading/research/starting point, as others have stated, some of THE CHART wasn’t ‘zactly accurate, or was not telling the whole story (as others have pointed out, but continue to be ignored).

Well…”someone” informed me that while they had no emotional investment in THE CHART, they then proceeded to insult both my parental heritage and financial status! Both statements were removed from the post by the time I read it (by an administrator?), but the e-mail notification I got had the unedited post…think I just picked up my first ‘Net stalker?

Methinks a lot of folks have more emotional investment in this stuff than they want to let on (or realize).

So sayeth the pragmatic BLUR!

 

[Mags]

What is MPI testing and why should I care?

 

[SwampWolf]

I never said they were not available. I said they were not available on the off the shelf models. There is not a single RRA stock model that includes Chrome lining or a 1/7 twist.

Well, I like the idea that I can get what I want or order what I need-and not have to pay for what I don't want or for what I don't need.

 

[FFMedic]

It's not fair in any way to state RRA does not offer and "off the shelf" rifles with chrome lining. That statement is tantamount to saying Ford does not offer 4 wheel drive standard in F-150s because the cheap, base models do not have 4x4.

For what it's worth, both RRA guns I own were bought as assembled, not custom ordered by me online and they both had chrome lining.

FFMedic

 

[V1ROT8]

Goodness.