Am I under-gunned without a 12ga for home defense?

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What is that lever gun, Averageman? I've never seen a black one before.
 
I'd rather fire a .38 near the kids than a 12ga.
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You might wanna rethink that. Shotguns are very low pressure, and about the least offensive to ears after a .22 rifle. I'd rather fire my 12 gauge indoors without hearing protection than any of the handguns or rifles.

I do keep a set of muffs and glasses in the bedroom, and would put them on If I had time (unlikely). I shudder to think how my ears would feel after torching off a few rounds from my 16" AR in the confines of a bedroom or hallway.
 
MachIVshooter said:
You might wanna rethink that. Shotguns are very low pressure, and about the least offensive to ears after a .22 rifle. I'd rather fire my 12 gauge indoors without hearing protection than any of the handguns or rifles.

I do keep a set of muffs and glasses in the bedroom, and would put them on If I had time (unlikely). I shudder to think how my ears would feel after torching off a few rounds from my 16" AR in the confines of a bedroom or hallway.
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I've read lots of internet FUD about the horrors of .357 indoors, but haven't read as much about shotguns inside. I'd like to hear more.

I have ear protection and glasses at hand also!
 
RSPEER: I don't, I carry a sp101 357 mag in my belt every day. I'm 6' 2" and weight 200 lbs. No one can tell that I have this gun on me and I've carried it so many years that I don't even notice it. I also carry a Bond Arms Derringer loaded with one 410, 000 buck, 5 pellet and one 45 long colt in a shoulder holster when driving.
 
Shooting any firearm indoors could produce permanent hearing damage, but if you only have time to grab the gun no one's going to recommend grabbing the hearing pro instead.

An 18" 12 gauge will produce about 161 dB while a 28" 12 gauge will produce about 151 dB. A .357 will produce about 164 dB.
 
Am I under-gunned without a 12ga for home defense?
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Hardly.

I've got a 12ga. riot gun, but it stays in the safe. Where I currently live, it couldn't be effectively employed anyway.

A .357 Magnum revolver is a perfectly acceptable home defense firearm.
 
I'll go with:

1. Spend the money on training
2. The Ruger will handle the vast majority of uses, esp. if you are trained.
3. If you want a long gun, lots of training pros - recommend the AR platform - another great debate.
4. If you do go long arm - shotgun or AR - you also need to train with it.
 
a cheap pump shotgun will be easy and cheap to train with. load it with no. 4 or no. 6 shot.
 
A 12 gauge is nice to have, but by no means a necessity for home defense. In close quarters or tight corners, it can even be a liability. Ultimately, though, the gun you use is going to be the gun you have the most access to. A shotgun is not an easy thing to carry around the house with you. It's going to wind up stashed in a bedroom, and will likely be far away if someone breaks in any time but night. A pistol that you can carry on your hip with you is far more useful.
 
What is that lever gun, Averageman? I've never seen a black one before

That is a 336SC it was dropped and the crown and stock were damaged. The stock is the original, I just cut the most damaged part away and painted it with truck bed liner, then I applied the step/deck tape and painted a couple coats over it. It was a shame to cut both the barrel and the stock, but both were damaged beyond saving.
I like taking damaged and cheap guns and giving them a new life.
The point was to make a Home Defence battery that was cheap and a "do it yourself project."
I am a big fan of the shotgun as a Home defence weapon as it has so many different applications, but our laws here in TEXAS allow things many other states don't...yet.
I would reccomend the shotgun and train the wife if I were in the O/P's situation. If you have to gather the kids when you hear a bump in the night it's nice to know she has your back covered. She has the cell phone and the door covered while she talks to the 911 operator and you get the kids to safety.
The dog,..well if you get a good one, you can't go wrong. It's comforting to find a piece of pants leg hanging from the fence and a happy Dobie wanting a treat.
 
Be reminded that the shotgun, should you get it, isn't the ideal "search" weapon... its more suited (for non LEO/Military types) to stationary defense... aka: "bunkering-down", pinning a doorway, etc. I suppose that goes for any long gun...

As for loads... buckshot for home defense or don't bother. There are COUNTLESS threads and studies done that show anything other than buckshot, even in a 12 gauge, will not CONSISTENTLY produce enough penetration to stop an attacker.

If you're one of those misguided souls who believes that some raging idiot will stop 'just because' he got hit with a butt load of tiny pellets that tore off the skin on his chest but didn't hit his vitals... you're sadly mistaken and could very well be placing yourself in further jeopardy should a HD/SD situation ever arise in your life (God I hope it doesn't).

Any round that is capable of stopping a bad guy is going to be capable of penetrating drywall and/or 2x4 boards. Heck, even small shot will penetrate drywall, but it sure as heck won't STOP a bad guy consistently.

Given the term 'consistently', IF, God forbid, you ever need to use a 12 gauge in defense, you might consider using something that is known to work consistently... because this situation is a one-time deal. You live or you may die. Why take the chance?! If you're worried about missing and hitting someone that's behind a door or wall, you don't have a winning mindset.

If you get a shotgun, train and load it properly. Don't listen to the 'minimalists' when it comes to life and death situations... unless you don't value the lives of your loved ones and/or yourself very much.

Stopping the badguy is priority numero uno. Number ONE! If you're drawing a weapon on him, that means his intention is to severely harm or kill someone. He is THE threat. You MAY miss and a projectile MAY pass through a wall and hit someone... albeit a miniscule chance... but what's for CERTAIN is this: if you don't stop the SOB, you WILL get hurt/killed and your family WILL get hurt/killed.

Train to hit what you shoot at. Know when and where to fire and be aware of what's behind the target.

"But my family lives in the house and I don't want to shoot them too, let alone the neighbors!" Very true and respectable thought... I feel the same. But if I, the primary defender of my home and family, can't STOP the SOB outright, who will???

I will train to shot straight and not miss. I WILL stop the primary threat first.
 
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Meanwhile, my Glock 22 lives in a V-Line Top Draw in my bedside drawer. It wears a Streamlight TLR2, XS Big Dots, and carries 31 rounds of Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP's (15+1, plus a spare mag). I even have room in the box for a Surefire 6P LED. I don't feel undergunned, and just as importantly, there's no way the kids are ever getting their hands on that weapon.
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Sgt R,

Have you had any trouble with that combination? The SWAT team in my local department had issues with malfs with that gun and load combination when fitting lights to the rails. I'm not kidding, it's been written up in magazines and they are not the only ones. Something about the light stiffening the frame enough to upset the workings of the weapons; G22 with 180 gr. GDHP. The FBI advised them to use a lighter load because they've found similar problems with light-equipped G22s and 180 gr. Loadings.

At any rate, it's been known to be an issue, so I thought I'd ask.
 
If you're one of those misguided souls who believes that some raging idiot will stop 'just because' he got hit with a butt load of tiny pellets that tore off the skin on his chest but didn't hit his vitals... you're sadly mistaken
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Depends a lot on where he's shot. A load of #6 in the face/neck area across an average bedroom ain't a small thing. Likewise if he's shot in the uh...toodles. Hold high or low with a birdshot-stoked shotgun...but not center mass. A miss will send the load of shot through drywall, but it won't likely exit with enough energy and penetration to kill...and that's no small consideration if you have kids in another part of the house, or another family in the adjoining apartment.

Because what have you gained if you get him with the second shot after you've killed your 5 year-old on the other side of the wall?

A good compromise would be high brass #2 shot. Even if a groin shot goes low, you'll still cut his legs out from under him, and if the face/neck shot goes low...a 1.5 ounce charge of shot high on the chest that hasn't dispersed won't do him any favors...guaranteed.

I know it's macho and all that to sing the praises of buckshot...until you consider that little guy in the next room with only 5/8ths inch of sheetrock between him and the shotgun.
 
buckshot for home defense or don't bother. There are COUNTLESS threads and studies done that show anything other than buckshot, even in a 12 gauge, will not CONSISTENTLY produce enough penetration to stop an attacker
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Not to place any doubt in the many studies on this subject, but one of my earliest memories of this subject was my father proving this to not be entirly true. He put two fist sized holes in an old freezer (the old ones that resembles a small buick) with nothing more than his 20 guage rabbit gun, IC/modified double barrel, loaded with nothing more than #4 shot that he used regularly for rabbits. distance to the freezer was about 15-20 feet. Unless you live in a mansion, I am pretty confident that HD situations, where sweeping a house if frowned on with long guns, you would be hard pressed to stretch any shot over 20 feet
 
1911Tuner

Tactics can fix the shooting your kids through the wall problem. I know of not a single 'tactic' that has not been well thought out in advance. A compromise on ammo should not replace safety and thinking firing through a wall with #2 shot will be a go when your kids are on the other side. It violates the shooting rule of knowing what is beyond your target.


As it is the shotgun is a true defensive weapon when it comes to home defense. A defensive posture means you will be static and thats where the shotgun comes into its own WITH real ammo. Not ammo designed to put little critters that weigh a couple pounds at most on the table for filling your belly.

Thats just my take..
 
This is a question that just really really inspires us internet people to respond. OK I will bite. The title of the OP is misleading. A 12 gauge is the established norm of shotgun weaponry, but if you had a 16 or even 20 gauge that would be considered adequate for home defense. Many rifles or carbines would be considered better than a pistol in this roll.
From reading the OP I would say that if you worry of being under-gunned then yes you should get something larger than a pistol. There are many options and good luck.
 
Tactics can fix the shooting your kids through the wall problem. I know of not a single 'tactic' that has not been well thought out in advance.
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Most people can perform with almost drill team precision in practice...and fall apart when it's real.
Kids, especially, tend to do just the opposite of what they've been taught when real-world stress and fear is factored in.

Therefore...

I live by the infantryman's golden rule.

"No plan survives first contact with the enemy."
 
Boris...I hear a lotta talk about how ineffective birdshot is, but there are some of us who know better. I'll relate a story about a guy I grew up with who was killed by birdshot.

Verify: Daryl Rothrock. 1976 or '77...but I'll say '76...shot and killed in a mobile home in Clemmons NC. Age 24. I don't know where to find it, but surely somebody can dig it up.

I'd known Daryl since 3rd grade. In his early teens, he went renegade on us, and started to run with a bad crowd. Drugs were involved, of course. He was also the hard-headed/hot-headed type. Couldn't tell him anything.

During a dispute over the money for pot trade, he entered a trailer brandishing a knife after having been told to leave repeatedly. The occupant met him with a Topper 20-gauge shotgun as he entered, telling him to leave again. Daryl advanced on him and was shot below the sternum with a field load of #6. Low brass 20 gauge field loads were 7/8ths ounce if memory serves me.

Witnesses state that he went down like a truck hit him...gurgled for about 30 seconds...and died. Estimated range was 18 feet as I recall.

Another friend from high school was the responding Forsyth County Sheriff's Deputy.
In a conversation with him several weeks later, he told me that it looked like a rat had eaten a hole halfway through him, and that he'd never seen so much blood come from one man.


At 20 feet, a charge of birdshot in an arm will all but remove the arm.

Argue pro or con all you wish, but I won't use buckshot in a house unless I'm the only one in the house.
 
I know the mods probably didn't want this to turn into a shotgun gauge/load discussion, but I will say that I was thinking 12ga/00 buckshot as the optimal HD configuration based mostly on the Box o' Truth articles dealing with this subject.

But like I said, I think I'm going to spend the money on training, probably an NRA Defensive Pistol course.
 
I have my 12 loaded with #4 buck and Slugs. You will be just as well armed with a 20 or a 16 gauged shotgun. I have shot a 4 inch 357 while sitting inside the cab of a truck with the widows open and had ringing ears for 3 days after the fact.
 
Am I under-gunned without a 12ga for home defense?
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No.
The shotgun (and the rifle) are greatly over-rated for home defense in my humble opinion.


I have great respect for a shotgun, but a pistol is something that you can have on your side at all times, and everywhere you go.

Say you're watching TV late one night, the shotgun is close by, the wife and kids are sleeping...
Okay, commercial break, and nature calls....so what do you do?
Well, you get up and go to the bathroom just like anyone would.
I'm betting that you don't take the shotgun with you to the bathroom for every little potty break.
Now you're done and just as you're washing your hands, you hear the sound of breaking glass....

You would probably be wishing that you had a pistol on your side right about then.



Let's say you're in your home checking out The High Road on your computer, and it's about 9:00pm, when suddenly you remember that you didn't turn off the sprinkler (you were watering the garden or lawn, whatever)....
Of course you're just going to run out and turn the water off, and it will only take a minute or two, so you don't take the shotgun with you....
Just as you turning the water off you catch some movement out of the corner of your eye....
You turn and see three guys in your backyard, positioning themselves between you and the entrance to your home.

You would probably be wishing that you had a pistol on your side right about then.


Let's say you're in your garage tinkering with the lawn mower.
It's 95 degrees out and so the garage door is open to let the heat out.
Suddenly two guys walk right in to the garage, and one has a baseball bat....
Now, do you have your shotgun with you every time you go and work in the garage?
I'm betting the answer is "no".
But you could certainly have a handgun on your side.



Anyway, I think you get the point....
You can never tell when you might need a weapon, and a pistol is something that you can have on your side nearly all the time, and nearly everywhere you go.

Yeah, rifles and shotguns definitely are more effective than handguns.
And yeah, if you live in a God forsaken post-apocalyptic "Road Warrior" type of setting, then a rifle or shotgun might make sense.

But realistically, in today's rural, urban, and suburban setting, the rifle or shotgun is just not something that you're likely to have with you when you really need it.

So my advice is to use that money on getting another handgun.
 
At 20 feet, a charge of birdshot in an arm will all but remove the arm.
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Not true.

You would be very surprised at how many folks are walking around with bird-shot in them.

I've X-rayed lots of guys who had been shot with bird-shot and lived to tell the tale, often with very minor injury.
 
Yep, it seems a lot easier to secure a handgun. And I'd rather fire a .38 near the kids than a 12ga.
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Thank you for adding this information. It is a relevant factor that bears strongly on your question.

Since I don't have to worry about "friendlies" in my HD situation, I added a 12ga pump to my armamentorium and keep it loaded with #1 Buck. I see my .357s and the SG as filling different roles. The handgun feels more practical for moving about, approaching the door, etc., and the SG is for barricading, or dealing with a known and identified threat if there's time to get it in play.

Not many people are going to tell you that you're under-gunned or under-armed with a .357. But do consider that a fellow in NY survived 21 hits to his body from pistol fire. I'll go out on a limb and assert that he would not have survived 21 shotgun blasts.
 
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