IF the USSC rules that the 2nd Amendment is an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT, what will be the impact on this set of atrocities? I'm betting this legislation will still go forward since the antis will merely respond: We're not saying you can't have a gun or ammo, just that it has to be strictly regulated....
ammunitionaccountability.org
- Thread starter 14427H
- Start date
- Status
Thernlund
Member
That's the MO. Can't ban it, so tax and regulate you out of it.
For my part I was never really that worried about a ban. I don't think it'll come down that way. I think they'd regulate you right out of ownership. Even the most die hard among us would have a limit to the amount of paperwork and red tape they'd wade through for a $600 pistol. Then add to that a transfer tax on ALL firearms (not just NFA stuff). There's your defacto ban.
-T.
For my part I was never really that worried about a ban. I don't think it'll come down that way. I think they'd regulate you right out of ownership. Even the most die hard among us would have a limit to the amount of paperwork and red tape they'd wade through for a $600 pistol. Then add to that a transfer tax on ALL firearms (not just NFA stuff). There's your defacto ban.
-T.
Eightball
Member
This, plus the fact that after this "microstamping" crap the antis have figured out "let's just go for the ammo"......we need regulation/lawsuits eliminating this type of crap.
Or, if it's only going to be for the "12 major calibres"...I guess that means that every ohter calibre will become cheap, relatively. .38 Super, anyone?
First, I have no proof, only conjecture and supposition, but considering what it accomplishes, and that it is probably totally unreliable, the company behind this is hiding in anonimity, etc., etc., ... I can't help but wonder if Soros, VPC, Brady, et al. aren't in this up to their necks.
Just like the California law, require something that is next to impossible to either implement, administer, or execute and presto! Instant back-door ban on firearms, for the most part.
Just thinking and wondering out loud here.
(ETA: Timing of all this is interesting too. Just prior to election and Supreme Court hearing on 2A. Maybe I need to add another layer of tin foil!)
Just like the California law, require something that is next to impossible to either implement, administer, or execute and presto! Instant back-door ban on firearms, for the most part.
Just thinking and wondering out loud here.
(ETA: Timing of all this is interesting too. Just prior to election and Supreme Court hearing on 2A. Maybe I need to add another layer of tin foil!)
Is it only on 12 major calibres?? Wow, because noone has ever committed a crime with a 12 gauge or a 7.62x54. Of course you know .50 BMG will be number one on their list to serialize. Gotta make sure you know who is shooting down those helicopters.
AH, but a court will see right through a defacto ban via ammunition regulation... just like it saw right through a poll tax. Microstamping and serialization could go down with all total bans if the USSC rules for Heller. Further, (IMHO) AMMUNITION IS AN ARM. It is probably classed as some type of explosive device. It *should* be protected right along with other arms (firearms, grenades, rockets, etc) carried by a soldier. Serialization and microstamping *could* be seen as an infringement on the right to keep and bear ammunition... especially if retail arms companies can not cheaply and effectively implement the scheme (i.e. you can't require a technology that cannot be implemented if it infringes on the 2nd!).
14427H
Member
Kentucky has a bill
2008 House Bill 715
Introduced by Rep. Kathy W Stein on March 3, 2008, to require serial numbers on every bullet sold on or after January 1, 2009."
Representative Kathy W. Stein (D)
House District 75
GET this:
Bio
Board of Trustees. Appalachian School of Law
FYI:
The Appalachian School of Law shooting occurred on January 16, 2002, at the Appalachian School of Law, an American Bar Association accredited private law school in Grundy, Virginia, United States. Three people were killed and three others were wounded when a disgruntled former student opened fire in the school with a handgun.When Peter Odighizuwa exited the building where the shooting took place, he was approached by two students with personal firearms[6] and one unarmed student. [7] There are two versions of the events that transpired at that moment, one by Tracy Bridges and one by Ted Besen.
According to Bridges, at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personal owned firearms.[8] Gross, a police officer with the Grifton Police Department in his home state of North Carolina, retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor.[9] Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, N.C.,[10] pulled his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe. As Bridges later told the Richmond Times Dispatch, he was prepared to shoot to kill.[11] Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun.[12] Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.[13]
2008 House Bill 715
Introduced by Rep. Kathy W Stein on March 3, 2008, to require serial numbers on every bullet sold on or after January 1, 2009."
Representative Kathy W. Stein (D)
House District 75
GET this:
Bio
Board of Trustees. Appalachian School of Law
FYI:
The Appalachian School of Law shooting occurred on January 16, 2002, at the Appalachian School of Law, an American Bar Association accredited private law school in Grundy, Virginia, United States. Three people were killed and three others were wounded when a disgruntled former student opened fire in the school with a handgun.When Peter Odighizuwa exited the building where the shooting took place, he was approached by two students with personal firearms[6] and one unarmed student. [7] There are two versions of the events that transpired at that moment, one by Tracy Bridges and one by Ted Besen.
According to Bridges, at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personal owned firearms.[8] Gross, a police officer with the Grifton Police Department in his home state of North Carolina, retrieved a 9 mm pistol and body armor.[9] Bridges, a county sheriff's deputy from Asheville, N.C.,[10] pulled his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevrolet Tahoe. As Bridges later told the Richmond Times Dispatch, he was prepared to shoot to kill.[11] Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun.[12] Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students, including Ted Besen and Todd Ross.[13]
Bill is Dead in Maryland
We killed this bill in Maryland, it was voted out of committee by a unanimous vote (that's a big deal in liberal Maryland).
For any states still fighting this bill in Committee - you may want to reference the Hawaii Attorney General - supposedly the Hawaii AG stated that this bill "violated the Constitutional rights of citizens of Hawaii." Check for a reference first, i didn't know this, but was glad to hear it when one of the delegates brought it up to the patent holder and bill sponsor during testimnoy in maryland.
We killed this bill in Maryland, it was voted out of committee by a unanimous vote (that's a big deal in liberal Maryland).
For any states still fighting this bill in Committee - you may want to reference the Hawaii Attorney General - supposedly the Hawaii AG stated that this bill "violated the Constitutional rights of citizens of Hawaii." Check for a reference first, i didn't know this, but was glad to hear it when one of the delegates brought it up to the patent holder and bill sponsor during testimnoy in maryland.
Who is AmmoCoding.com?
Registrant:
Ammo Coding Systems
10002 Aurora Avenue North
#4432
Seattle, Washington 98133
United States
Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: AMMOCODING.COM
Created on: 19-Dec-03
Expires on: 19-Dec-09
Last Updated on: 27-Dec-07
Administrative Contact:
Mace, Steve steven.mace at comcast.net
Ammo Coding Systems
10002 Aurora Avenue North
#4432
Seattle, Washington 98133
United States
4259181511 Fax -- 4257431452
Technical Contact:
Mace, Steve steven.mace at comcast.net
Ammo Coding Systems
10002 Aurora Avenue North
#4432
Seattle, Washington 98133
United States
4259181511 Fax -- 4257431452
Registrant:
Ammo Coding Systems
10002 Aurora Avenue North
#4432
Seattle, Washington 98133
United States
Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: AMMOCODING.COM
Created on: 19-Dec-03
Expires on: 19-Dec-09
Last Updated on: 27-Dec-07
Administrative Contact:
Mace, Steve steven.mace at comcast.net
Ammo Coding Systems
10002 Aurora Avenue North
#4432
Seattle, Washington 98133
United States
4259181511 Fax -- 4257431452
Technical Contact:
Mace, Steve steven.mace at comcast.net
Ammo Coding Systems
10002 Aurora Avenue North
#4432
Seattle, Washington 98133
United States
4259181511 Fax -- 4257431452
Ok, where to start....
#1. Most guns used in crimes are stolen. It's only valid to assume that bullets used in crimes will be stolen too. - There, your fancy database is now useless to solve the crime.
#2. Criminals already break laws in possessing and using a firearm in a crime, they are not likely to destroy or otherwise dispose of un-encoded ammo. - Your fancy DB is useless...
#3. Reloading supplies exist and can easily be used to manufacture non stamped ammo. - Again, your fancy DB is useless....
Now we get a little more state specific as I'm in PA.
Title 18, sec 6111.4: "nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any govern*ment or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth."
Registering ammo is registering firearms by proxy and is illegal.
In the PA draft of the law they establish a "manufacturer" as a person who possesses a federal license to manufacture ammo for sale or distribution. They also establish a "seller" as a seller of ammo in the commonwealth.
As a reloader I am neither a "manufacture" or "seller" by their definition and therefore I am exempt from this law. (for now...)
The PA bill looks to have died on the vine... Have to see if they reintroduce it next year...
#1. Most guns used in crimes are stolen. It's only valid to assume that bullets used in crimes will be stolen too. - There, your fancy database is now useless to solve the crime.
#2. Criminals already break laws in possessing and using a firearm in a crime, they are not likely to destroy or otherwise dispose of un-encoded ammo. - Your fancy DB is useless...
#3. Reloading supplies exist and can easily be used to manufacture non stamped ammo. - Again, your fancy DB is useless....
Now we get a little more state specific as I'm in PA.
Title 18, sec 6111.4: "nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any govern*ment or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth."
Registering ammo is registering firearms by proxy and is illegal.
In the PA draft of the law they establish a "manufacturer" as a person who possesses a federal license to manufacture ammo for sale or distribution. They also establish a "seller" as a seller of ammo in the commonwealth.
As a reloader I am neither a "manufacture" or "seller" by their definition and therefore I am exempt from this law. (for now...)
The PA bill looks to have died on the vine... Have to see if they reintroduce it next year...
Attachments
Putting numbers on bullets isn't the only idea out there.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14454
These bills may not pass right now but the antis will keep trying.
What we need to do, IMO, is focus on stopping these bills when they pop up and focus on creating legislation to prevent legislation by attrition.
Until we can prevent the antis from constantly attacking our rights this will not go away.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14454
These bills may not pass right now but the antis will keep trying.
What we need to do, IMO, is focus on stopping these bills when they pop up and focus on creating legislation to prevent legislation by attrition.
Until we can prevent the antis from constantly attacking our rights this will not go away.
divemedic
Member
One of the errors with this post is that there are 91 printable characters on a keyboard. The problem is that all of them are not suitable for microstamping. For example, a colon would look remarkably like a semi-colon, or even the letter i. A period looks like a colon, and brackets look like parenthesis. Even with that, a 7 character code would require that a .22" projectile would require characters no more than .025" wide. You won't be able to read that with a magnifying glass.
TheFringe
Member
Administrative Contact:
Mace, Steve steven.mace at comcast.net
Ammo Coding Systems
10002 Aurora Avenue North
#4432
Seattle, Washington 98133
United States
4259181511 Fax -- 4257431452
Wow, that is the local Comcast store/office and just blocks from my house. Interesting that the area code here in the city limits is 206 yet the area code listed (425) is for the suburbs. I do actually need to replace my remote control, so I think I will pay this Comcast headquarters a visit to see what's up.
Mace, Steve steven.mace at comcast.net
Ammo Coding Systems
10002 Aurora Avenue North
#4432
Seattle, Washington 98133
United States
4259181511 Fax -- 4257431452
Wow, that is the local Comcast store/office and just blocks from my house. Interesting that the area code here in the city limits is 206 yet the area code listed (425) is for the suburbs. I do actually need to replace my remote control, so I think I will pay this Comcast headquarters a visit to see what's up.
mgregg85
Member
Hmm, I guess I could see bullet pullers and hand presses(to reseat the bullet with the code filed off) becoming pretty popular with gangs.
If Congress tried to tax something to death that would otherwise be legal for lack of their ability to just outright ban it, the SCOTUS would not permit it. The High Court has understood since McCulloch v. Maryland that the power to tax is the power to destroy and would strike down these uber high taxes were are discussing the government might attempt. I'd like to think so anyway.
hmmm
I don't think something like this can be done on a state level because it affects interstate commerce. So these laws could be struck down by the Supreme Court...
So I guess black powder pistols and reloading equipment go the way of the dodo???
I don't think so. There is something so foul about this idea as to defy description.
I don't think something like this can be done on a state level because it affects interstate commerce. So these laws could be struck down by the Supreme Court...
So I guess black powder pistols and reloading equipment go the way of the dodo???
I don't think so. There is something so foul about this idea as to defy description.
MADDOG
Member
Do ya'll think the "criminal" will walk in and buy a box of "new" ammo and sign his name and address? I think he will just go to the store or my house and steal it. If that happens then the law will be at the store and/or my house. They are not trying to stop the "criminal", they are trying to stop us.
JoeFish
Member
Wouldn't it be nice if all the effort that went into these kinds of registration and encoding technologies went into developing regulations that might actually prevent gun crime?
True, true and true, not to mention anyone who feels like driving to Mexico for the day (not a big deal in these parts) wearing a Hawaiian shirt can come back with a spare tire or beer cooler full of uncoded ammo.
How about mandatory maximum penalties for crimes committed with guns and leave us the heck alone?
True, true and true, not to mention anyone who feels like driving to Mexico for the day (not a big deal in these parts) wearing a Hawaiian shirt can come back with a spare tire or beer cooler full of uncoded ammo.
How about mandatory maximum penalties for crimes committed with guns and leave us the heck alone?
Why?
Edit-Oh wait, are you saying that they would be stolen if they required registration? Ha I thought you meant that most ammo that's currently used is stolen, which isn't evident.
Also the whole registration idea is ridiculous since people will just use reloads, which destroys the idea so easily! It will just create a huge black market home made bullets, or criminals will cast their own bullets.
Last edited:
JoeFish
Member
Well, this isn't my statistic (or really a statistic at all) but anecdotally I can say that most of the unsecured gun storage I've seen has ammo right next to it. Shooting bags full of guns and gear, bedroom closets with stacks of long guns and a cardboard box of ammo right beside them, nightstand drawers, etc. I bet many of you have seen them, too.
Whenever I've heard of someone having a gun stolen that had ammo nearby the ammo was always taken. I know if I were a thief stealing a gun that had ammo next to it- that someone else had bought and potentially had their prints on- I would definitely make room in my bag for that ammo.
Whenever I've heard of someone having a gun stolen that had ammo nearby the ammo was always taken. I know if I were a thief stealing a gun that had ammo next to it- that someone else had bought and potentially had their prints on- I would definitely make room in my bag for that ammo.
indiana house bill 1260
I have just finished watching an interview with Cam Edwards of the NRA and Russ Ford of the Ammunition Coding System. This was the most useless interviiew I have ever seen. Mr. Ford is truly the most illogical person i have ever listened to. If you have a little bit of time you should go to the NRA website and listen to it. It is a year old but I believe he still uses the same logic. In Indiana and other states they are trying again to pass this insane law. I urge anyone from Indiana to contact our state legislators and let them know your feelings on this subject. There are a number of other states with the same pending legislation and I would also urge everyone to check on ammunition acountability website. It will give your state house bill number if your state is considering this. This is the most impractical proposal I think they have ever came up with. I have posted our Indiana house bill number in the "title" bar. stay safe
I have just finished watching an interview with Cam Edwards of the NRA and Russ Ford of the Ammunition Coding System. This was the most useless interviiew I have ever seen. Mr. Ford is truly the most illogical person i have ever listened to. If you have a little bit of time you should go to the NRA website and listen to it. It is a year old but I believe he still uses the same logic. In Indiana and other states they are trying again to pass this insane law. I urge anyone from Indiana to contact our state legislators and let them know your feelings on this subject. There are a number of other states with the same pending legislation and I would also urge everyone to check on ammunition acountability website. It will give your state house bill number if your state is considering this. This is the most impractical proposal I think they have ever came up with. I have posted our Indiana house bill number in the "title" bar. stay safe
leadcounsel
member
If I'm not mistaken, similar technology in explosives was wildly unsuccessful and expensive and was discontinued. I believe they used taggants in commercially sold explosive, and the increased cost was very high and hence little return on cost.
dogma512
Member
The ACS bill, with even the same typos in it as last year, was reintroduced in Hawaii for this session. It's effectively dead as the committee refused to hear it.
I'm worried that sooner or later some state is going to pass this type of legislation and that will encourage others to follow suit.
I'm worried that sooner or later some state is going to pass this type of legislation and that will encourage others to follow suit.
- Status
