And are they surprised?

[SCKimberFan]

He's referring to that horrible wasteland you fly over between LA and NYC and the clueless yokels who live there ;0

That's only true if you consider PA that horrible wasteland between The Peoples Republik of NYC and the Peoples Republik of California. He was speaking to a group of elistists at Cal Berkeley (I think) about the folks of PA.

 

[3KillerBs]

To say that putting a Bible and a gun together in the same image will be bad for RKBA is to say that Bibles and Christians are, in some way, substandard, perhaps even evil.

It exhibits the exact same attitude that antis have about guns.

Again, no one is forcing anyone to look at the thing.

There are countries where atheist have freedom from religion because their fellow citizens have no freedom of religion. Its possible that one of them might have gun rights but, as a general rule, once the government starts infringing on citizens' rights they don't stop with just restricting the rights you don't want others to have.

Religion is not a shameful thing that must be kept a dark secret and spoken about only in whispers.

Open carry is good for holy writ as well as for firearms.

 

[JWarren]

...it appears that your are incapable of seeing that poster as also being potentially damaging to the cause of RKBA, and have instead chosen appeal to popularity.

With greater and greater frequency, I read THR with eyes full of wonder and amazement.

Potentially damaging? How so? Let's cut through the rhetoric.

With pleasing regularity, we see posters by Oleg which often highlight those of various demographics which may not be generally associated with the firearms community being included into shooting, enjoying the practice, and/or exercising the rights of us all.

And we cheer. And I do, too.

You see, we are glad more and more responsible persons are coming into what has traditionally been a rural man's practice and perhaps more closely tied to religious persons (I question this.) With greater and greater urbanization, being a rural man's practice doesn't exactly have the promising future that it once did. And with decline in people practicing ANY religion, the same holds true.

But we are still here, too.

It seems that many make the mental seque that if there is ANY imagery of what could be called the "traditional" firearms community, it becomes exclusively and solely their (our) domain. It almost seems that the premise is that if such exists, it becomes a liability to us all. Frankly, I find myself less and less concerned those demonstrate their own version of fascism and intolerance.

You see, not EVERY image of the RKBA community HAS to represent YOU. If I held that view, I would be against MANY, MANY of Oleg's posters. I suggest that some of us demonstrate the same tolerance of imagry that does not represent YOU that those of the "traditional" community has shown FOR you.

I am reminded of that South Park episode where they tried to put on a "Politically Correct" Christmas production. It ended up as some New-Age, Interpretative Dance number that none of the various groups could relate to or identify with. It has lost all connective properties.

This is EXACTLY what many of our community expect from the "Traditional" firearms community.

More and more, I see comments suggesting that we MUST distance ourselves from certain imagery.

What you are saying is that we must alienate and render non-represented a great number of persons.

A while back, Oleg did a poster about the "Angry White Man" that prompted a thread that actually became heated. A person named "fishhook" suggested that I was racist because I didn't agree that it needed to have a person of another race in it to "tone it down."


I get it. Many cheer when we reach out to non-traditional groups. I do, too. But many of those same persons retch when they see ANY reminder of the traditional groups that have steadfastly supported and fought for those rights we are enjoying.


This isn't just about religion, or a multitude of demographic variances. It's about distancing from seqments of the community that YOU cannot tolerate or desire to be associated with. It isn't so much about stereotype as much as it that you may (gasp!) be lumped into a group you'd rather not be associated with.

In my opinion, we see a greater and greater demographic divide based upon regional, geographic, and lifestyle factors. It is no wonder that we often see "redneck" and "yokel" comments with impunity in our community. It isn't by accident that Obama chose his words. Who, exactly, do you think he was talking about?

It saddens me that the RKBA community isn't immune from sharing his viewpoint.



-- John

 

[REPOMAN]

Amen.......

I loved the poster..... I cling to my guns and religion 24/7/365 even when I'm not bitter..... KUDOS to Armoredman, Keep up the good work.....

 

[Emfuser]

Hey, ya'll look....I don't believe there was any offense intended by the picture.
I'm not really big on religion, but I am big on my relationship with my God,
who is my master. However, I don't try to impose that on anyone...We all have different beliefs, views and opinions...What we need to be concerned with here on this site, is what we have in common...RKBA...Let's try not to be so thin skinned about things just because it doesn't look exactly like we think it should...stick with the things we have in common...the common thread...

*sigh*

If you take what I have written in this thread as inferring that
-Someone is trying to push religon in my face.
-Someone is telling me to believe in something I don't want to believe in.
-Someone is telling me to read the bible and believe in God the way armoredman does.

Then you are grossly mistaken, and should re-read what I said. My point is, very simply, that the poster in question is great for preaching to the choir that is the guns n' jesus crowd, but could very easily be used by the other side, against the RKBA cause. If you don't understand that, then I don't know what more to tell you.

 

[Emfuser]

To say that putting a Bible and a gun together in the same image will be bad for RKBA is to say that Bibles and Christians are, in some way, substandard, perhaps even evil.

I'm sorry, what? Please put away your straw man.

It exhibits the exact same attitude that antis have about guns.

Again, no one is forcing anyone to look at the thing.

There are countries where atheist have freedom from religion because their fellow citizens have no freedom of religion. Its possible that one of them might have gun rights but, as a general rule, once the government starts infringing on citizens' rights they don't stop with just restricting the rights you don't want others to have.

Religion is not a shameful thing that must be kept a dark secret and spoken about only in whispers.

(I am getting good mileage out of this one.)

If you take what I have written in this thread as inferring that
-Someone is trying to push religon in my face.
-Someone is telling me to believe in something I don't want to believe in.
-Someone is telling me to read the bible and believe in God the way armoredman does.

Then you are grossly mistaken, and should re-read what I said. My point is, very simply, that the poster in question is great for preaching to the choir that is the guns n' jesus crowd, but could very easily be used by the other side, against the RKBA cause. If you don't understand that, then I don't know what more to tell you.

 

[Emfuser]

I am surprised that so many people have come in here fielding similarly poor English comprehension and accused me of attacking their religion. No, that is not meant to be offensive or derogatory at all. It just appears that some folks are either ignoring or simply not understanding what has been written.

If you READ CAREFULLY what myself and Gentleman Ranker have written, what we are trying to say is made very clear. If you read what we've said and somehow see it as an attack on religion, then I don't know what to tell you. That's not what we're doing.

 

[Emfuser]

Potentially damaging? How so? Let's cut through the rhetoric.

Please re-read the thread, particularly posts 29 and 113.

With pleasing regularity, we see posters by Oleg which often highlight those of various demographics which may not be generally associated with the firearms community being included into shooting, enjoying the practice, and/or exercising the rights of us all.

And we cheer. And I do, too.

That's nice... and not really relevant to this thread.

You see, we are glad more and more responsible persons are coming into what has traditionally been a rural man's practice and perhaps more closely tied to religious persons (I question this.) With greater and greater urbanization, being a rural man's practice doesn't exactly have the promising future that it once did. And with decline in people practicing ANY religion, the same holds true.

But we are still here, too.

It seems that many make the mental seque that if there is ANY imagery of what could be called the "traditional" firearms community, it becomes exclusively and solely their (our) domain. It almost seems that the premise is that if such exists, it becomes a liability to us all. Frankly, I find myself less and less concerned those demonstrate their own version of fascism and intolerance.

And you accuse ME of being rhetorical?

You see, not EVERY image of the RKBA community HAS to represent YOU. If I held that view, I would be against MANY, MANY of Oleg's posters. I suggest that some of us demonstrate the same tolerance of imagry that does not represent YOU that those of the "traditional" community has shown FOR you.

I am reminded of that South Park episode where they tried to put on a "Politically Correct" Christmas production. It ended up as some New-Age, Interpretative Dance number that none of the various groups could relate to or identify with. It has lost all connective properties.

This is EXACTLY what many of our community expect from the "Traditional" firearms community.

Boy, I sure am getting good use out of this one today.

If you take what I have written in this thread as inferring that
-Someone is trying to push religon in my face.
-Someone is telling me to believe in something I don't want to believe in.
-Someone is telling me to read the bible and believe in God the way armoredman does.

Then you are grossly mistaken, and should re-read what I said. My point is, very simply, that the poster in question is great for preaching to the choir that is the guns n' jesus crowd, but could very easily be used by the other side, against the RKBA cause. If you don't understand that, then I don't know what more to tell you.

(again, read post 113)

More and more, I see comments suggesting that we MUST distance ourselves from certain imagery.

What you are saying is that we must alienate and render non-represented a great number of persons.

I'm sorry, what? Please put away your straw man.

A while back, Oleg did a poster about the "Angry White Man" that prompted a thread that actually became heated. A person named "fishhook" suggested that I was racist because I didn't agree that it needed to have a person of another race in it to "tone it down."

That's nice. Can we please keep the discussion relevant to this thread and this picture in question?

I get it. Many cheer when we reach out to non-traditional groups. I do, too. But many of those same persons retch when they see ANY reminder of the traditional groups that have steadfastly supported and fought for those rights we are enjoying.

This isn't just about religion, or a multitude of demographic variances. It's about distancing from seqments of the community that YOU cannot tolerate or desire to be associated with. It isn't so much about stereotype as much as it that you may (gasp!) be lumped into a group you'd rather not be associated with.

Nice try with another straw man. I love it when people tell me what my positions are. Too bad it's logical fallacy, and totally invalid.

In my opinion, we see a greater and greater demographic divide based upon regional, geographic, and lifestyle factors. It is no wonder that we often see "redneck" and "yokel" comments with impunity in our community. It isn't by accident that Obama chose his words. Who, exactly, do you think he was talking about?

It saddens me that the RKBA community isn't immune from sharing his viewpoint.

That's a nice opinion you have there, Mr. Warren.

Please, no more accusations of being overly rhetorical. Or, if you're going to point that finger, please don't do so and then immediately go into a fallacy-ridden, rhetoric-heavy reply.

 

[springmom]

I don't think anyone's ignoring what you wrote, Emfuser. I do think that we're stuck with responding to statements that you have yet to back up with solid arguments. Several people have asked you to clearly state why this is going to damage the RKBA community. Yes, we've read your past posts. What we are telling you is that you didn't make your case. You're stating things as facts and expecting that we'll simply take your word for it because you're such an expert. Prove your points, back them up, or stop talking down to us about how we just don't get it.

As an aside, all the lofty *sigh*ing and comments about others' inability with the English language isn't doing much for bolstering your argument, either. You can think we're a bunch of idiots, of course, but making the point over and over again isn't doing much to further the discussion. Just sayin'.

Springmom

 

[MakAttak]

If you READ CAREFULLY what myself and Gentleman Ranker have written, what we are trying to say is made very clear. If you read what we've said and somehow see it as an attack on religion, then I don't know what to tell you. That's not what we're doing.

Then perhaps you don't know what you are doing.

You suggested that this image is detrimental to the right to keep and bear arms.

You then said:

I am merely highlighting a recurrent theme which I see in the gun owner community which may play into a sterotype that could be undesirable.

followed by:

While I am not offended at your poster, I can state that it does not accurately represent me, nor a sizable percentage of the RKBA community who does not believe the same thing(s) as you do, when it comes to the other half of Mr. Obama's quote. You know, the one that has nothing to do with RKBA?

I also am publicly questioning if playing so literally into Mr. Obama's utterance of a stereotype is harmful, even if it is meant as an act of defiance?

Here is the suggestion that the association of religion and the right to keep and bear arms is harmful.

Now:

Maybe it's because I go outside of the gun community, online and IRL quite frequently, to do RKBA advocacy, that I see the potential for deleterious effects. When I have to face antis, or even more importantly, swing voters in the audience, negative stereotypes are something you absolutely do NOT want to play into. Also, tying together two contentious issues, one of which is much nastier to deal with than the other, does not help at all, EVER. The only people who posters like this appeal to don't need any convincing; you've already got their vote. HOWEVER, there are plenty of people out there who haven't made up their minds. Playing into stereotypes, and tying together multiple hotly contentious issues is always a BAD idea if you're trying to win a debate and forward an idea, but it's always a great tactic if you're trying to confuse people, stall an idea, or kill a debate. I've had it tried on me many many many times and it always makes me do ten times more work to get the RKBA message across when someone successfully introduces the "bible-beating, gun-loving redneck" stereotype into an argument.

So, the point I'm trying to make, which some unfortunately seem unable or unwilling to grasp, is that, while I know your intentions are good, that you are apparently unaware of just how much DAMAGE your picture can do when let loose onto the population at large.

You just called someone who is a christian and enjoys the rights to keep and bear arms a "negative stereotype."

I'm sure you think you're being tolerant and open minded. Most people who hold biased views are unaware of their bias. The reason you are seeing so much backlash to you "innocuous" statements is that they are not. Such bigotry is shameful whether it is for non-traditional beliefs or for christianity. (Disclaimer: In the United States, where the vast majority of us live, any belief not christianity is "non-traditional.")

The fact is, not only should a gun on your hip be seen as a normal part of people's lives, so too should religion.

In this case, armoredman HAS rejected the negative stereotype of gun owner's: we're not bitter. In this poster, I see a normal person worried about the future. His suggestion is it is not bitterness that drives us to guns or to the bible.

 

[Emfuser]

I don't think anyone's ignoring what you wrote, Emfuser. I do think that we're stuck with responding to statements that you have yet to back up with solid arguments. Several people have asked you to clearly state why this is going to damage the RKBA community. Yes, we've read your past posts. What we are telling you is that you didn't make your case. You're stating things as facts and expecting that we'll simply take your word for it because you're such an expert. Prove your points, back them up, or stop talking down to us about how we just don't get it.

As an aside, all the lofty *sigh*ing and comments about others' inability with the English language isn't doing much for bolstering your argument, either. You can think we're a bunch of idiots, of course, but making the point over and over again isn't doing much to further the discussion. Just sayin'.

Springmom

I don't think it's going to damage the RKBA community at all. The criticism I have is that such posters fuel the fires of the antis and get used by them as political ammunition. Mr. Obama used his statement to convey a negative stereotype. Stereotypes are not things that are used to garner rational support, they're meant to draw an emotional response because that's a big part of politics on nearly any scale.

What too many people here are assuming is that I'm disparaging their religion or their lifestyle. That is NOT the case at all. What I am considering is representation of the RKBA cause that comes from within our community and is seen, and thus judged by the greater population at large. You know, people who may very well NOT share your lifestyle.

As Gentleman Ranker said back in post 113, this poster ties together two things that REALLY get the left incensed: guns and religion.

However ... remember that messages delivered by poster or similar visual format don't so much make an actual argument as they create an emotional response. The key to good advertising (and good propaganda, btw) is to find out what the audience already feels good about and connect the New Idea (New Candidate, New Product) to that. If you accidentally connect the New Idea to something the audience doesn't like, it can blow up in your face.

If I have a criticism of the poster (and this is only valid "outside the family"), it would be that it may send a message that "The only alternative to our bad situation now is guns and Christianity." I don't believe that armoredman intends it to say that, but I think that some audiences, given their existing (if wrong) ideas about some things, could easily see it. Someone who is already nervous about guns and isn't Christian could see it as offering a choice between two situations that scare or exclude them.

You have to STOP thinking that you're dealing with a small group of rational people who you can calmly explain the meaning and intended audience that poster was created for. The audience for anything that gets out is EVERYONE. Tying together two hot-button issues, one of which is much easier to argue for sans emotions (guns) than the other (religion) may seem totally awesome to the guns n' jesus crowd here in the RKBA community but it may very well be extremely off-putting to those outside of it, and used against the RKBA cause instead of for it.

As I have repeatedly offered, if you want a non-formulated example, I will gladly take that picture and drop it into a politically mixed, non-topical forum and see what sort of responses I get, so I can post them here.

Now, I apologize if you are offended by my periodic "*sigh*", but on more than a few occasions I have been obliquely accused of attacking religion, clarified that I most certainly am not, and yet again been obliquely accused of attacking religion. It is very frustrating.

 

[Emfuser]

You just called someone who is a christian and enjoys the rights to keep and bear arms a "negative stereotype."

What? NO!
No no no no no no no!

Do you even know what a stereotype is?

Stereotype: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern ; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment.

Now, "bible-beating, gun-loving redneck" is, on a national scale, used as a negative stereotype. Do you understand that? That is something that is used against a christian who enjoys the rights to keep and bear arms to portray them in a negative light.

Again...

Correct representation: "christian who enjoys the rights to keep and bear arms"

Nationally recognized negative stereotype: "bible-beating, gun-loving redneck"

PLEASE tell me you can understand that difference, and how that matters when used by political organizations and politicians? Do you understand that, on the political stage, that embracing that negative stereotype is harmful to the cause? Going out and representing yourself, saying "I'm a christian who enjoys the RKBA" is GOOD because it clearly and correctly represents you and your beliefs. Going out and saying "I'm a bible-beating, gun-loving redneck!" is NOT GOOD because it invokes those negative feelings people associate with the stereotype. Remember, I'm talking about interaction on the political stage, not just little sheltered corners and communities. Politics is a GAME.

I'm sure you think you're being tolerant and open minded. Most people who hold biased views are unaware of their bias. The reason you are seeing so much backlash to you "innocuous" statements is that they are not. Such bigotry is shameful whether it is for non-traditional beliefs or for christianity. (Disclaimer: In the United States, where the vast majority of us live, any belief not christianity is "non-traditional.")

I am sorry that you could not correctly comprehend my message and have thus incorrectly labeled me as a bigot.

The fact is, not only should a gun on your hip be seen as a normal part of people's lives, so too should religion.

In this case, armoredman HAS rejected the negative stereotype of gun owner's: we're not bitter. In this poster, I see a normal person worried about the future. His suggestion is it is not bitterness that drives us to guns or to the bible.

I understand what the poster means, I have stated my reasons why I think tying the two together can be more hurtful to the RKBA cause than helpful.

 

[Emfuser]

In the mean time, while many of you are writing PO'd responses at me, I'll be posting this picture in a few places and gathering feedback.

 

[springmom]

Maybe that's because when your initial responses were not based on this argument at all. You simply asked, in post #4,

How about those of us who enjoy our RKBA but don't care for religion?

and in post #14 you finally open the topic of the last 5 pages....but not until strongly reinforcing your original point,

Perhaps you misunderstand.

While I am not offended at your poster, I can state that it does not accurately represent me, nor a sizable percentage of the RKBA community who does not believe the same thing(s) as you do, when it comes to the other half of Mr. Obama's quote. You know, the one that has nothing to do with RKBA?

I also am publicly questioning if playing so literally into Mr. Obama's utterance of a stereotype is harmful, even if it is meant as an act of defiance?

This brings me again to the point so many here have tried to make to you: you don't like it because you don't believe, and that's fine, but it doesn't HAVE to be something you like to be either good in its own right or useful in the public square.

You state in post #29 that,

*sigh*

No, appealing to popularity is not a good thing when you're trying to advocate an idea. Logical fallacies are things to be avoided.

But the fact that X is popular does not make it a logical fallacy. YOU see it as a logical fallacy. That doesn't make it one. You went on to say,

When I have to face antis, or even more importantly, swing voters in the audience, negative stereotypes are something you absolutely do NOT want to play into.

And here is where we come to an impasse. For you, the poster represents a negative stereotype. For others here, including myself, it does not. BHO certainly intended it as such, I'd agree with that. But it isn't. It is a response to his elitist attempt to ingratiate himself with his San Francisco audience. It is a reminder that the vast majority of persons in this country are both believers in God AND supportive of the RKBA. It states that the times are such that clinging to one's faith, and clinging to one's rights, is not a logical fallacy, nor a negative stereotype; but rather, for those who do believe and who are pro-RKBA, is a logically consistent and sensible response.

So, the point I'm trying to make, which some unfortunately seem unable or unwilling to grasp, is that, while I know your intentions are good, that you are apparently unaware of just how much DAMAGE your picture can do when let loose onto the population at large.

Once again...you have no data (or have presented none) to back this up. Were we to run a scientific study to discern whether your point has merit, we'd have to choose a representative cross section of American voters and have the poster displayed by individuals who were functionally neutral on the values displayed therein, within a body of other posters which would be similarly rated by the subjects...then run statistical analyses of the data that was collected. You, showing it around would only render anecdotal stories of individual responses elicited by someone who is not neutral on the poster in the first place. Either way, the plural of anecdote is not data.

I understand that you think this poster would be ill-received by some people who are either truly anti-RKBA or are fence-sitting on the issue. I expect you're right. But ISTM that you're running this argument into the ground, not because you actually think this thing's going to get loose and destroy all your hard work for RKBA but because, as you clearly stated in the first two posts referenced above, you just don't like the premise behind it.

About three pages ago, somebody said this was much ado about nothing. They're right.

Now, if anyone can tell me how to capture that image for a MacBook's wallpaper, I'd be grateful. Or if Armoredman can send me an email with it so I can get it out of my documents folder

Springmom

 

[meef]

So, the point I'm trying to make, which some unfortunately seem unable or unwilling to grasp, is that, while I know your intentions are good, that you are apparently unaware of just how much DAMAGE your picture can do when let loose onto the population at large.

The Founding Fathers were a group of bitter (as some politicians might say) men clinging to their guns and religion - and apparently not too concerned with damaging their reputations or image in the process.

In the mean time, while many of you are writing PO'd responses at me, I'll be posting this picture in a few places and gathering feedback.

That's meantime, Em. Not mean time. Nobody's being mean. Just expressing their opinions.

 

[3KillerBs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3KillerBs
To say that putting a Bible and a gun together in the same image will be bad for RKBA is to say that Bibles and Christians are, in some way, substandard, perhaps even evil.

I'm sorry, what? Please put away your straw man.

Its no straw man. Its the plain reality of what those who object mean.

Shoving Christians and the Bible under the carpet and into hiding isn't advancing the RKBA cause in the name of "tolerance" and "diversity". Its adopting the attitude and practice of the enemy to run shrieking from the sight of a Bible as they run shrieking from the sight of a gun.

If you can't see the similarity you need some good think time in front of a mirror because it the antithesis of freedom to attempt to intimidate, shame, and shut-up those whose beliefs don't march lockstep with yours.

 

[Emfuser]

Ugh, the lack of a quote feature here is trying at times.

 

[armoredman]

Also, eschew obfuscation, clarity is paramount.

Emfuser, perhaps your message is the one in a confused state, as it seems relatively few here can peirce the veils of layered meanings you have draped it in, and seemingly far more enjoyed, and understood the relatively simple message I conveyed. That being as read, I move on to the superior attitude you deliberately convey, a, (dare I say it? ), holier-than-thou that comes through like a Louisville slugger through the left ear, if nothing else. No matter the message, cloaking your missive with superiority is a serious detriment to accurate decoding, as it provides a layer of noise between you and the intended reciever, aka, the rest of us in the general unwashed.
Or, to refer to another sterotype, "Ah kin hear ya, but I don't know what in tarnation you're sayin'!"
As for gathering information on my work in another setting, feel free, as you obviously already do, to post my work elsewhere, and gauge perception and reaction. To be personally and bluntly honest, I care not a fig for the Left's panicked and slobberingly invariable recoil from my images and message, I expect it.
And now, with that final adieu and sweep of the stage, perhaps this is a wonderful time to reflect on our inner beliefs, core vaules, and the underpinnings of society. Or, just grab another cup of coffee.

 

[Emfuser]

Maybe that's because when your initial responses were not based on this argument at all. You simply asked, in post #4 ... and in post #14 you finally open the topic of the last 5 pages....but not until strongly reinforcing your original point,

That's called a lead-in.

This brings me again to the point so many here have tried to make to you: you don't like it because you don't believe, and that's fine, but it doesn't HAVE to be something you like to be either good in its own right or useful in the public square.

I'm pretty sure that I had made clear, by that point in time, why I don't think the poster is necessarily good for the wider RKBA cause. You even quoted the statement where I made that very clear. If you choose to believe otherwise (which you obviously are going to do), then feel free. However, do not put words in my mouth. I have made abundantly clear that my objection is the tying together of RKBA and religion as a means of promotion of RKBA, in THIS particular poster in question.

But the fact that X is popular does not make it a logical fallacy. YOU see it as a logical fallacy. That doesn't make it one.

No, I see a logical fallacy when popularity (or perceived popularity) is used as justification of doing something.

And here is where we come to an impasse. For you, the poster represents a negative stereotype. For others here, including myself, it does not. BHO certainly intended it as such, I'd agree with that. But it isn't. It is a response to his elitist attempt to ingratiate himself with his San Francisco audience. It is a reminder that the vast majority of persons in this country are both believers in God AND supportive of the RKBA. It states that the times are such that clinging to one's faith, and clinging to one's rights, is not a logical fallacy, nor a negative stereotype; but rather, for those who do believe and who are pro-RKBA, is a logically consistent and sensible response.

I have explained in my previous post the difference between "christian who supports RKBA" vs. "bible-beating, gun-loving redneck." What their usage implicates, the emotional effects they are meant to elicit, and how that is used by our opponents. If you would like further clarification along those lines, or believe I misstated something, I will be happy to address your concerns.

Once again...you have no data (or have presented none) to back this up. Were we to run a scientific study to discern whether your point has merit, we'd have to choose a representative cross section of American voters and have the poster displayed by individuals who were functionally neutral on the values displayed therein, within a body of other posters which would be similarly rated by the subjects...then run statistical analyses of the data that was collected. You, showing it around would only render anecdotal stories of individual responses elicited by someone who is not neutral on the poster in the first place. Either way, the plural of anecdote is not data.

I am not intending to portray what I wrote as a study. It is meant for rational examination and consideration. I am, however, gathering some data at the moment, to be used informally, to further illustrate my point. I do not care to undertake a full-blown study to illustrate what is a relatively simple concept: that mixing two hotly contentious issues into one can be used against the one that is of relevance on THR: RKBA.

Conversely, you cannot offer any affirmative studies that specifically address this in order to back up your position vs. mine. There are effective limits to the discussion for both of us in that regard.

I understand that you think this poster would be ill-received by some people who are either truly anti-RKBA or are fence-sitting on the issue. I expect you're right. But ISTM that you're running this argument into the ground, not because you actually think this thing's going to get loose and destroy all your hard work for RKBA but because, as you clearly stated in the first two posts referenced above, you just don't like the premise behind it.

I argue for the sake of argument and enlightenment. I find it to be enjoyable and good mental exercise. If you are truly frustrated by this, I am sorry. I don't intend to cause anyone any sort of despair. I know full well that what I write will be offensive to some (though not intentionally), misunderstood by some, understood but disagreed with by some, and understood and agreed with by some. That's perfectly normal for these sorts of debates.

If you are tired of the thread and wish to withdraw, that's fine. I see you agree with my basic premise but have argument with the details. We can agree to disagree. I mean to do no harm here.

 

[Emfuser]

Its no straw man. Its the plain reality of what those who object mean.

A straw man, in basic principle, is when you take a statement of another and present it differently so you can attack it.

1 Person A has position X.
2 Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3 Person B attacks position Y.
4 Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

You represented my position differently than I did myself, and then attacked it. That's commission of a straw man fallacy. Furthermore, I do not appreciate you telling ME what I mean with my own words. I have gone to considerable lengths to be very clear in what I meant. Please take the emotions out of it and allow me to represent myself and my own viewpoints with MY words. Thank you.

Shoving Christians and the Bible under the carpet and into hiding isn't advancing the RKBA cause in the name of "tolerance" and "diversity". Its adopting the attitude and practice of the enemy to run shrieking from the sight of a Bible as they run shrieking from the sight of a gun.

If you can't see the similarity you need some good think time in front of a mirror because it the antithesis of freedom to attempt to intimidate, shame, and shut-up those whose beliefs don't march lockstep with yours.

You grossly misunderstand my stance. I am sorry that your apparent offense over your own misinterpretation of my words is preventing you from seeing this.

 

[3KillerBs]

The thing is,

What you and Obama see as a "negative stereotype" is what we who ARE represented by that poster believe is a POSITIVE. Our believe in God and in the fundamental human rights endowed by our Creator (as opposed to privileges granted by our government), is the foundation of our identity.

The pointed humor of that poster drives home the elitism and condescension involved in the original statement by saying, "Yep, we're ordinary, everyday, normal, gun-toting, Bible-believing, blue-collar folks. What's your problem?"

Asking us to keep our religion under wraps and conceal carry our Bibles lest they "reinforce negative stereotypes" among the antis is like asking blacks to go around in whiteface makeup so as not to reinforce negative stereotypes among the racists.

Those who already believe that both guns and Christians are mean-scary and evil-bad will continue to do so. But the humor in this poster may crack open the shell of false-logic and expose the essential silliness for those not too deeply entrenched in elitist beliefs.

 

[kwelz]

Wow!.
I am anti Religion as is probably obvious from my previous post. However I don't see a problem with the image. I don't see the issue with it if that is how people choose to present themselves. I don't think it presents a bad or negative image. Why are some people so uptight.

 

[Emfuser]

The thing is,

What you and Obama see as a "negative stereotype" is what we who ARE represented by that poster believe is a POSITIVE. Our believe in God and in the fundamental human rights endowed by our Creator (as opposed to privileges granted by our government), is the foundation of our identity.

Please see my commentary on how the composition of your audience determines the basis of their perception. This is not something which we can control, it is merely the way things are. Yes, I realize that much of the RKBA community identifies with the poster, as was the intent of the creator (armoredman). What I am going to great lengths to do is challenge people to consider what effects the poster has on those outside of that demographic, particularly on the political stage.

The pointed humor of that poster drives home the elitism and condescension involved in the original statement by saying, "Yep, we're ordinary, everyday, normal, gun-toting, Bible-believing, blue-collar folks. What's your problem?"

That's how you see it. A point I've been trying to highlight is that it's not necessarily how it will be perceived by other audiences.

Asking us to keep our religion under wraps and conceal carry our Bibles lest they "reinforce negative stereotypes" among the antis is like asking blacks to go around in whiteface makeup so as not to reinforce negative stereotypes among the racists.

I'm not trying to tell you to keep your religion a secret. I'm questioning the wisdom of tying religion and RKBA together in the public political arena.

Those who already believe that both guns and Christians are mean-scary and evil-bad will continue to do so. But the humor in this poster may crack open the shell of false-logic and expose the essential silliness for those not too deeply entrenched in elitist beliefs.

Yes, there are those who will not be swayed, as always is the case. Again, my emphasis is on questioning whether people who are different from you will come to the same conclusion when they see that poster, or perhaps one directly opposing yours.

 

[3KillerBs]

You represented my position differently than I did myself, and then attacked it. That's commission of a straw man fallacy. Furthermore, I do not appreciate you telling ME what I mean with my own words. Please take the emotions out of it and allow me to represent myself and my own viewpoints with MY words. Thank you.

No. I merely showed you the clear meaning of the position.

To attack that poster and call it bad for RKBA is to attempt to shame Christians and keep them in their place at the back of the bus. It is buying into and promoting the idea that a Bible is a bad thing and that believers are bad people.

Anyone who thinks that poster should be suppressed believes that the appearance of Christianity in the public square is a bad thing. Anyone who believes that the association of Christianity with another idea is bad for the latter idea is guilty of anti-Christian bigotry.

All the rhetorical dancing around in the world won't change that plain meaning one iota.

 

[3KillerBs]

What I am going to great lengths to do is challenge people to consider what effects the poster has on those outside of that demographic, particularly on the political stage.

I suppose the bottom line here is that I don't care what confirmed anti-Christian, anti-gun bigots think. They're a lost cause already.

Ordinary, blue-collar, "regular joe" people who may never have given a moment's thought to Second Amendment issues will respond positively to a poster that sends elitist condescension right back into the faces of those who sneered at said ordinary, blue-collar, "regular joe" people.