And are they surprised?

[Emfuser]

I see you cling hardily to your straw man despite my making abundantly clear that you are mis-representing me. That's a pity. I hate to see people cling to fallacy.

Hey, you even threw in a little name-calling at the end. BRAVO!

I suppose the bottom line here is that I don't care what confirmed anti-Christian, anti-gun bigots think. They're a lost cause already.

Quite correct, as I have stated and agreed to numerous times already.

 

[armoredman]

This is truely out of hand now, and you totally skipped my last post, but that's OK, I'm used to it.
This has gone on long enough.

I argue for the sake of argument and enlightenment.

AKA, let's stir up emotions with negative arguments and clealy superior attitudes, cause the pot to boil, add a few choice phrases and words periodicaly to keep temperatures hot, and smirk at the results. Sometimes this activity is referred to by the Internet word, "troll".

 

[Claude Clay]

WOW-- the bible truly is the mighty word--6 pages of them and growing.
like an editoral cartoon your picture has elicited both emotion and thought; good job
enough of the picking-nits; I'm back to contemplating my navel.

 

[3KillerBs]

If the shoe fits wear it.

But your time would be better spent examining the contradictions in your own words and the similarity of your tactics to the tactics of the anti-gunner as you attempt to shame people into regarding their Bibles as ticking time bombs that could offend someone at any moment.

 

[Emfuser]

This is truely out of hand now, and you totally skipped my last post, but that's OK, I'm used to it.
This has gone on long enough.

Sorry, I only saw your post when the entire contents was this:

Also, eschew obfuscation, clarity is paramount.

Let me go read the rest and I will respond.

 

[Emfuser]

AKA, let's stir up emotions with negative arguments and clealy superior attitudes, cause the pot to boil, add a few choice phrases and words periodicaly to keep temperatures hot, and smirk at the results. Sometimes this activity is referred to by the Internet word, "troll".

That's not fair at all and I object to the label. A troll generally brings up a hotly controversial subject in a purposefully vague manner in order to elicit emotional responses, and often steps out of the debate once the fire is burning. I have written quite a substantial amount here defending my viewpoints and making explanations of things along with attempting to clarify things to people whom I inadvertently offended.

Please do not label me a troll. Arguing simply because I enjoy debate does not make me one.

 

[jlbraun]

In my own view, the reason that this poster damages RKBA - or rather makes it easier for people to damage it - is because it is a canard, a stereotype that people can easily direct negative words at.

In my opinion, you have to make RKBA *hard to make fun of*. Mainstream left America finds it easy to denigrate gun ownership because it's associated with white, bible-thumping rednecks. Supporting that stereotype doesn't help the RKBA, especially if it's done in a confrontational way.

The way to make RKBA hard to make fun of is by doing the same thing that Oleg does with his posters - making firearms ownership reasonable, rational, and normal. Women with guns. Handicapped people with guns. Black people with guns. Goths with guns. Kids with guns.

Yes, there is an element of the RKBA community that is white, male, and Christian. What I'm saying is that others not traditionally associated with RKBA - the women, the atheists, the gays, and the Buddhists are starting to take over the heavy lifting from you, and taking the brunt of the left's attacks because we resemble the left themselves. In my opinion, this is the future of the RKBA movement.

While your poster is nice, it doesn't do anything for RKBA, makes it easy for the left to attack us, and turns off those on the fence.

 

[M203Sniper]

MiB

Edwards (J): Why the big secret? People are smart. They can handle it.

Kay: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

I welcome Government paralyzation.

 

[Emfuser]

Well put, jlbraun. Thank you for the additional insight.

Edit: "canard"... I have been trying to remember that word for days, thanks!

 

[230RN]

I cling to my guns and my Book Of Shadows.

 

[jlbraun]

I think I might get out my AK-47 and Deepak Chopra's Life of the Buddha to take some pictures tonight.

 

[Emfuser]

Emfuser, perhaps your message is the one in a confused state, as it seems relatively few here can peirce the veils of layered meanings you have draped it in, and seemingly far more enjoyed, and understood the relatively simple message I conveyed. That being as read, I move on to the superior attitude you deliberately convey, a, (dare I say it? ), holier-than-thou that comes through like a Louisville slugger through the left ear, if nothing else.

I understand that what I'm writing may come off that way because it asks people to view something from a perspective different from their own. Not only view it, but put yourself in the shoes of that person and try to understand how they might perceive it. That's why I keep taking the time to clarify things when I think my point(s) have been misunderstood.

No matter the message, cloaking your missive with superiority is a serious detriment to accurate decoding, as it provides a layer of noise between you and the intended reciever, aka, the rest of us in the general unwashed.
Or, to refer to another sterotype, "Ah kin hear ya, but I don't know what in tarnation you're sayin'!"

I don't think of myself as superior. The only advantage I may bear here over some is that I have spent considerable time outside of the RKBA community doing advocacy not just for RKBA, but for other ideas I agree with as well. I have years of experience interacting with people who are emotional, irrational, even hateful, and I regularly play in their home courts or other not-necessarily-friendly venues. I'm trying to relate what I have learned about spreading ideas, be it intentionally or unintentionally, and how things that are well-intentioned inside of a sheltered community can actually be used against them on a bigger political stage. This is something that is HARD to grasp if you've never engaged in such activity before. I do not hold a position of superiority because I engage in such things, it merely allows me to represent and call question to different perspectives to elicit consideration for the audience here.

As for gathering information on my work in another setting, feel free, as you obviously already do, to post my work elsewhere, and gauge perception and reaction. To be personally and bluntly honest, I care not a fig for the Left's panicked and slobberingly invariable recoil from my images and message, I expect it.

Hmm... you are correct I did not ask if I could share your work. I apologize for the misstep.

I understand that you don't care about disagreeing feedback, but I assure you it is relevant to what I'm talking about.

And now, with that final adieu and sweep of the stage, perhaps this is a wonderful time to reflect on our inner beliefs, core vaules, and the underpinnings of society. Or, just grab another cup of coffee.

Cya later

 

[armoredman]

I had to return to answer one last thing, and BTW, yes, you may post it elsewhere.

I have years of experience interacting with people who are emotional, irrational, even hateful, and I regularly play in their home courts or other not-necessarily-friendly venues....This is something that is HARD to grasp if you've never engaged in such activity before.

I've worked in several differant prison units for the last 7 years, maximum custody lockdown, close custody, medium custody open yards, general population, sex offenders, metal health, and violence control. I think I can relate to your area of expertese...
Faretheewell, I am off.

 

[3KillerBs]

In my opinion, you have to make RKBA *hard to make fun of*. Mainstream left America finds it easy to denigrate gun ownership because it's associated with white, bible-thumping rednecks. Supporting that stereotype doesn't help the RKBA, especially if it's done in a confrontational way.

On the contrary, there is nothing so ridiculous as a person/group/movement that can't stand to poke a little fun at itself. When someone/something takes itself with too much deathly seriousness it becomes vulnerable to anyone with a normal sense of humor.

The elitists of the anti-gun persuasion take themselves VERY seriously and this poster strikes right in the center of the X-ring on the target they present by doing so.

And long as they continue to pat themselves on the back for being so enlightened as to recognize the inherently evil-bad nature of the guns and religion that lesser beings "cling to" humor is our best weapon. Nothing lets the hot air out of puffed up condescension like a pointed joke.

 

[jlbraun]

3KBs,

I think that you're right, but I think the poster looks to me to be an example of what you're talking about - the poster looks to take itself entirely too seriously.

Oleg's posters do a good job at poking fun at the RKBA community, I think.

 

[3KillerBs]

I think I might get out my AK-47 and Deepak Chopra's Life of the Buddha to take some pictures tonight.

I look forward to the results.

 

[MakAttak]

I understand that what I'm writing may come off that way because it asks people to view something from a perspective different from their own. Not only view it, but put yourself in the shoes of that person and try to understand how they might perceive it. That's why I keep taking the time to clarify things when I think my point(s) have been misunderstood.

And the problem is you don't understand what your positions suggest.

You claim you have no problem with christianity (i.e. "religion"). You then say that in certain circles, associating the second amendment with Christianity will be detrimental.

This point is conceded. No one has argued certain circles will be put off by this.

The problem is you continue to argue this point. No one on the other side (my position) has said that some people will be offended by this.

What I am saying is that suggesting we should avoid any association of guns and religion is enabling prejudice. Most supporters of the second amendment are Christian. Period. Full Stop.

I can say this because most people in this country are professed Christians. This poster truly represents most supporters of the second amendment, then.

You, however, suggest we should hide these facts because they make some people uncomfortable.

You do not suggest that Oleg should avoid putting "goths" in his posters. Many people will be offended by this: in fact, some people may be frightened by this. Those "goth" people are EXACTLY the kind of "dangerous" individuals that we should keep away from guns! Instead, we make a poster celebrating this?! How foolish is that?

Yet, we support it because this is a representation that the second amendment isn't just for "normal" people.

So, too, the second amendment is also for Christians. Your argument suggests we should avoid pointing this out, which, as 3KillerBs has said, is tantamount to suggesting Blacks should hide their faces for fear of offending white racists.

 

[3KillerBs]

3KBs,

I think that you're right, but I think the poster looks to me to be an example of what you're talking about - the poster looks to take itself entirely too seriously.

Armoredman can clarify his intent if he wishes, but I read it as a beautifully understated, sarcastic "zinger" myself.

 

[3KillerBs]

What I am saying is that suggesting we should avoid any association of guns and religion is enabling prejudice.

Well said. You've boiled it down into perfect, unambiguous clarity.

 

[jlbraun]

MakAttack,

What we're suggesting is that support for RKBA among white Christian men is already pretty good. We as the RKBA community don't need to get this image out there, the country already knows it. What we need to do is to bring more people into the RKBA fold - specifically leftists and Democrats - by putting images out there that look and sound just like them. The best way to get someone to join a group is to show how like them already the group is. And this poster doesn't do that.

The people that this poster might put off are exactly the people that the RKBA movement needs.

Should we avoid connecting guns and Christianity explicitly? Yes. Is it because the Bible is, on face, offensive? No.

 

[Emfuser]

And the problem is you don't understand what your positions suggest.

You claim you have no problem with christianity (i.e. "religion"). You then say that in certain circles, associating the second amendment with Christianity will be detrimental.

This point is conceded. No one has argued certain circles will be put off by this.

The problem is you continue to argue this point. No one on the other side (my position) has said that some people will be offended by this.

What I am saying is that suggesting we should avoid any association of guns and religion is enabling prejudice. Most supporters of the second amendment are Christian. Period. Full Stop.

I can say this because most people in this country are professed Christians. This poster truly represents most supporters of the second amendment, then.

You, however, suggest we should hide these facts because they make some people uncomfortable.

You do not suggest that Oleg should avoid putting "goths" in his posters. Many people will be offended by this: in fact, some people may be frightened by this. Those "goth" people are EXACTLY the kind of "dangerous" individuals that we should keep away from guns! Instead, we make a poster celebrating this?! How foolish is that?

Yet, we support it because this is a representation that the second amendment isn't just for "normal" people.

So, too, the second amendment is also for Christians. Your argument suggests we should avoid pointing this out, which, as 3KillerBs has said, is tantamount to suggesting Blacks should hide their faces for fear of offending white racists.

I suggest you read this post (137) and tell me if it does not sufficiently address your concerns.

If you find it insufficient, please say so, and I will expound upon the idea further and address your points more succinctly.

 

[Emfuser]

Well said. You've boiled it down into perfect, unambiguous clarity.

Not so fast there... killer.

What I'm saying is that such associations must be either avoided, or made with careful consideration of their effects outside a staunchly pro-RKBA community. That's what I emphasized in post 137.

Generally, I wouldn't advise avoiding tying the two together, for reasons jlbraun stated. However I have previously stated how one may go about associating them in manners that are less likely to backfire.

 

[springmom]

I don't think of myself as superior.

Really??? You could have fooled me with statements such as

I hate to see people cling to fallacy.

Hey, you even threw in a little name-calling at the end. BRAVO!

and

I don't intend to cause anyone any sort of despair.

or

If you are tired of the thread and wish to withdraw, that's fine.

To add to armoredman's comments, you're talking down to people. Surely in all your vast experience outside the RKBA community, you have picked up on the fact that people don't take that well?

For myself, you couldn't cause me to despair if you worked at it.

We do get your point. We simply don't care. Deal with it. I'm done.

Springmom

 

[3KillerBs]

Should we avoid connecting guns and Christianity explicitly? Yes. Is it because the Bible is, on face, offensive? No.

Those sentences contradict each other. If the Bible is not offensive then there is no reason not to connect guns with Christianity because it will not cause any problems. If you believe that it will cause problems then you believe that the Bible is offensive.

The main problem with the people you're saying we need to reach is their tendency to find offense in the mere sight (or even the thought), of something that they don't agree with.

Why validate that foolishness by catering to it?

 

[Emfuser]

Really??? You could have fooled me with statements such as (quoted posts regarding another poster)

I will gladly mock posts which devolve into fallacy and name calling because it highlights that someone arguing against me is using poor tactics. However you have to earn that when I'm around.

The other two statements are not condescending. One is a clear statement that I'm not trying to cause any sort of despair. I'm not sure how that could possibly be viewed as condescending. The other is acknowledgment of your statement that you are tired of this and do not wish to continue. Again, why is that condescending? I stated that I understand your perspective, that you have made your points, and that you have said you're getting tired of this. That means I bear you no ire or lack of respect if you thus choose to be done with the thread.

To add to armoredman's comments, you're talking down to people. Surely in all your vast experience outside the RKBA community, you have picked up on the fact that people don't take that well?

For myself, you couldn't cause me to despair if you worked at it.

We do get your point. We simply don't care. Deal with it. I'm done.

Ok then. Good day, madam.