Annealing Tips?

[gifbohane]

I just bought myself an Annealeez gen 3 machine. Starting to set it up and I am looking for some helpful hints.

First I have decided to use it either outdoors or in the garage. No fumes or proximity to powder.

It seems to me that the key to successful annealing is the amount of time that the case should be in contact with the flame. The optimal time seems to be 5.5 to 6 seconds. At least according to the owner of Annealeez. However the wheels were factory set up to expose the case to about 4 to 4.5 seconds.

Is this exposure time really critical? I saw one you tuber leave them cook for 10 seconds and he claims no harm or foul.

Any helpful hints?

 

[AJC1]

There seems to be a fairly large window of time between stress relieved to annealed to dead soft junk. Under done is better than making scrap.

 

[ericuda]

Good luck. Havent used this machine but I wouldnt think propane in house is bad. Grew up with propane wall heat and no issues.

 

[gifbohane]

There seems to be a fairly large window of time between stress relieved to annealed to dead soft junk. Under done is better than making scrap.

AJC Thanks, but can you quantify the difference in time?

 

[HowieG]

The Science Behind Annealing Brass Cases (bisonballistics.com)

See the linked article and the charts. My tests with 750 degree Tempilaq show me that 7 or 8 seconds is about right for every case I have tried. Note the Effect of Annealing Temp on Brass Strength chart. The effect on hardness levels out at a certain point. What you don't want to do is overheat the base of the case or melt the case down.

 

[AJC1]

AJC Thanks, but can you quantify the difference in time?

No because case size is the primary factor. 223 is going to be quick compared to 338 or 300 prc. I start off with junk cases and cook them to junk to see how long that takes. When I find the point of dead soft back off time by 15-20 percent and test a batch. So if 20 seconds is scrap back off 4 seconds and run a test batch. The math will be more messy with fractions of a second, I round up and use hole numbers

 

[HowieG]

No because case size is the primary factor. 223 is going to be quick compared to 338 or 300 prc. I start off with junk cases and cook them to junk to see how long that takes. When I find the point of dead soft back off time by 15-20 percent and test a batch. So if 20 seconds is scrap back off 4 seconds and run a test batch. The math will be more messy with fractions of a second, I round up and use hole numbers

My experience has been that the 22 cal cases take about the same length of time to get up to 750 degrees F. I haven't tried 30 cal in comparison, but I wouldn't be surprised if it took longer due to the increased diameter. Then again, I am spinning the cases, so there may not be much of a difference.

 

[dredd]

Another good article: https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

"Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F).
Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft.
From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:"

 

[gifbohane]

Sorry but I forgot to mention that I will be using 223 to start.

 

[HowieG]

Another good article: https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

"Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F).
Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft.
From this discussion we can see that there are four considerations concerning time and temperature:"

I disagree respectfully. There isn't over annealed. There is partially annealed and fully annealed. And melted, of course. I am talking the neck here, not the base. Brass annealing is totally reversible by cold working. If you think you are too soft, fine, run it through your sizing die a few times and it will work harden and you can start again. That is why annealing doesn't last. As you go through your size and fire cycle, the brass work hardens again.

Now, if I got the base up to 700 degrees F, that would be hard to reverse. The base doesn't get worked much if at all in a sizing die and I don't want to fire it with a fully annealed base. I could melt the brass down, pour it into a cylindrical mold and then use a stamping machine to form a whole new case, but that is kind of hard on the old pocket book.

 

[IALoder]

I'm going through the same thing right now, got an annealeez for Christmas. I'm annealing in the garage with the overhead door open. 750° tempilaq has really helped with torch set up and timing for the wheels. Definitely start out with some "scrap" brass and get to playing!

 

[gifbohane]

I'm going through the same thing right now, got an annealeez for Christmas. 750 tempilaq has really helped with torch set up and timing for the wheels. Definitely start out with some "scrap" brass and get to playing!

Where and how do you apply the tempelaq?

 

[HowieG]

I think one of the problems with annealing is that there is science and then there is the I-want-to-sell-you-a-$500 annealing machine-science. Part of that is the old it-will-increase-accuracy statement. So far, and I have looked hard, I haven't been able to find a statiscally significant or valid test of accuracy between annealed brass and unannealed brass. Mostly, what's out there is of the I fired 50 rounds by hand variety. All of the top shooters do not anneal. The last figure I saw on that from the top PRS pros is 65% did and 35% didn't. Glen Zedicker, of HANDLOADING FOR COMPETITION fame, and a master shooter didn't believe it was worth the time. His method was to throw the brass away and buy some more. Personally, I play with annealing to extend neck life a bit and even that might be a waste of time since I mostly scrap cases with loose primer pockets.

 

[HowieG]

Where and how do you apply the tempelaq?

Tempilaq a thin streak INSIDE the case neck. You don't want direct flame contact with the paint.

 

[IALoder]

Where and how do you apply the tempelaq?

Inside the case neck. I just went and timed my set up for the .308 cases I'm playing with. 6.2 seconds till it drops. Pretty much right after the tempilaq "disappears"

 

[AJC1]

I think one of the problems with annealing is that there is science and then there is the I-want-to-sell-you-a-$500 annealing machine-science. Part of that is the old it-will-increase-accuracy statement. So far, and I have looked hard, I haven't been able to find a statiscally significant or valid test of accuracy between annealed brass and unannealed brass. Mostly, what's out there is of the I fired 50 rounds by hand variety. All of the top shooters do not anneal. The last figure I saw on that from the top PRS pros is 65% did and 35% didn't. Glen Zedicker, of HANDLOADING FOR COMPETITION fame, and a master shooter didn't believe it was worth the time. His method was to throw the brass away and buy some more. Personally, I play with annealing to extend neck life a bit and even that might be a waste of time since I mostly scrap cases with loose primer pockets.

I also use it mostly to prevent cracks while working. Old hard to find brass is worth annealing to prevent loss.

 

[Blue68f100]

The time is based on temp transfer. How close the flame is to the brass. Backing away allows for a longer time, while closer shorter.

 

[HowieG]

The time is based on temp transfer. How close the flame is to the brass. Backing away allows for a longer time, while closer shorter.

If you want to have more time, use a candle. Still plenty hot enough.

 

[Rule3]

Stumbled on this guys video. Don't know if good or bad but looked pretty neat!

DIY Induction Annealing Brass with .01 second accuracy for $200

 

[tominboise]

I think one of the problems with annealing is that there is science and then there is the I-want-to-sell-you-a-$500 annealing machine-science. Part of that is the old it-will-increase-accuracy statement. So far, and I have looked hard, I haven't been able to find a statiscally significant or valid test of accuracy between annealed brass and unannealed brass. Mostly, what's out there is of the I fired 50 rounds by hand variety. All of the top shooters do not anneal. The last figure I saw on that from the top PRS pros is 65% did and 35% didn't. Glen Zedicker, of HANDLOADING FOR COMPETITION fame, and a master shooter didn't believe it was worth the time. His method was to throw the brass away and buy some more. Personally, I play with annealing to extend neck life a bit and even that might be a waste of time since I mostly scrap cases with loose primer pockets.

Matches my experience. I think one needs to know really, "why am I annealing this case"? Two reasons that I know of are, 1) to have neck tension more consistent between cartridges and 2) prevent cracks in necks before the brass is worn out. Most people aren't shooting equipment good enough to measure the effects of #1. I've played around with annealing on the cheap and it just isn't worth it for what I do and how I shoot. By the way, too much heat can result in dead soft case necks, which can result in issues when resizing:

 

[jmorris]

The dwell time is dependent on the intensity of the flame.

Propane does make it easy to see when you are overdoing it. If the flame changes from blue to orange, speed it up, reduce the flame or both.

I set them up so the flame remains blue, even color around the neck and the base can be held by hand.

 

[HowieG]

Matches my experience. I think one needs to know really, "why am I annealing this case"? Two reasons that I know of are, 1) to have neck tension more consistent between cartridges and 2) prevent cracks in necks before the brass is worn out. Most people aren't shooting equipment good enough to measure the effects of #1. I've played around with annealing on the cheap and it just isn't worth it for what I do and how I shoot. By the way, too much heat can result in dead soft case necks, which can result in issues when resizing:

View attachment 1052679

I agree. Like I stated above though, I usually reach the loose primer pocket point before then neck crack point so that actually makes annealing sort of a waste from that angle. I am of a mind to anneal every 4 or 5 loadings now if the primer pockets allow.

How long did you cook those cases in the pic? I assume it was an experiment.

 

[doubleh]

I will stay out of this except to say that brass is fully annealed at 700 degrees.

 

[HowieG]

I will stay out of this except to say that brass is fully annealed at 700 degrees.

That is a good temp. That is the start of the range where annealing takes place almost instantly. You can anneal down at 450 if you have the time. An hour or more. That would be kind of difficult to achieve from a convenience standpoint.

 

[lightman]

Some of these have already been posted. But here goes.

Get some tenpilaq
Save some junk cases to use during set-up
Once set up make some notes for the next time
Keep the heat on the neck and shoulder and away from the base

I reloaded a long time before ever annealing. At first I used molten lead, but you never hear much about this anymore. I bought a machine back during the last shortage (2008) because of Winchester's poor quality control.

Both Varmint Al and AccurateShooter.Com have good articles on annealing that are worth a look.