Annealing Tips?

[HowieG]

I currently anneal using an electric screwdriver and an appropriately sized socket for the base of my brass. I use a propane torch at the moment. I dim the lights so I can see the case neck and flame contact point easily. I spin the case in the flame for a slow count (seconds) that matches what my tempilaq tests have shown me is good. Basically, even though I keep a count, I can tell now by the shoulder darkening up a bit.

It takes about a 10 second cycle for me. Spin a case up to temp and then dump it on a damp towel and reload. So, about 100 cases every 17 minutes or so. I already have the tools, so the cost is a little time and some propane.

I am actually thinking about using an alcohol burner. A candle works, but it leaves soot.

 

[tominboise]

I agree. Like I stated above though, I usually reach the loose primer pocket point before then neck crack point so that actually makes annealing sort of a waste from that angle. I am of a mind to anneal every 4 or 5 loadings now if the primer pockets allow.

How long did you cook those cases in the pic? I assume it was an experiment.

Those were about 8 seconds in a mapp glass torch, rotating with a cordless drill. I would never attempt to anneal anything without some tempilaq to give me some information.

 

[HowieG]

Some of these have already been posted. But here goes.

Get some tenpilaq
Save some junk cases to use during set-up
Once set up make some notes for the next time
Keep the heat on the neck and shoulder and away from the base

I reloaded a long time before ever annealing. At first I used molten lead, but you never hear much about this anymore. I bought a machine back during the last shortage (2008) because of Winchester's poor quality control.

Both Varmint Al and AccurateShooter.Com have good articles on annealing that are worth a look.

Molten salt is another method similar to lead. I never liked the idea of splashing around in molten lead though.

 

[HowieG]

In the old days, when I annealed, which was rarely, I used the pan of water and a torch method. Dim the lights and toast them until they began to glow. The water protected the base. I never had a problem shooting those cases contrary to current belief about glowing necks. Mainly I didn't do it much because the set up and execution of that method was kind of a pain in the neck.

 

[243winxb]

Annealing- Less is better. To much makes scrap brass.

Edit/add- Stress relieving happens at 400F degrees. I would buy- https://www.ampannealing.com/index/

Read & follow instructions.

 

[HowieG]

Those were about 8 seconds in a mapp glass torch, rotating with a cordless drill. I would never attempt to anneal anything without some tempilaq to give me some information.

I guess I will stay away from MAPP glass torches.

 

[HowieG]

Annealing- Less is better. To much makes scrap brass.

Too much less is not effective. The window is pretty large though.

 

[Laphroaig]

I got a pretty good education when I used to make .224 bullets from .22 brass. A good anneal was mandatory to minimize cracking when forming the point, and ruining the bullet. I kept track of the number that cracked vs. the annealing procedure and could quantify the success of my anneal. My formula for success was 1000* F for 1 hour. I can attest that 450* overnight did nothing.

I anneal rifle brass with a torch generally after the 3rd loading. I sit in a dimly lit room and spin the brass in the flame until it just starts to glow (maybe 4 or 5 seconds, 900*?) then toss it in a bucket of water. My accuracy test is the 20 shot slow-fire prone portion of a highpower match, and I've shot some nice scores with freshly annealed brass. I've never ruined a piece of brass and extend the useful life quite a bit IMO. In my case, doing it a second time is a waste because primer pockets start to get loose by the time it needs it again.

Too much less in not effective. The window is pretty large though.

+1

I thought that the link in Post #5 matches my experience pretty well and is one of the better discussions of the subject that I have read. Its not rocket science even though some make it out to be.

 

[HowieG]

I got a pretty good education when I used to make .224 bullets from .22 brass. A good anneal was mandatory to minimize cracking when forming the point, and ruining the bullet. I kept track of the number that cracked vs. the annealing procedure and could quantify the success of my anneal. My formula for success was 1000* F for 1 hour. I can attest that 450* overnight did nothing.

I anneal rifle brass with a torch generally after the 3rd loading. I sit in a dimly lit room and spin the brass in the flame until it just starts to glow (maybe 4 or 5 seconds, 900*?) then toss it in a bucket of water. My accuracy test is the 20 shot slow-fire prone portion of a highpower match, and I've shot some nice scores with freshly annealed brass. I've never ruined a piece of brass and extend the useful life quite a bit IMO. In my case, doing it a second time is a waste because primer pockets start to get loose by the time it needs it again.



+1

I thought that the link in Post #5 matches my experience pretty well and is one of the better discussions of the subject that I have read. Its not rocket science even though some make it out to be.

I used to read about making jacketed bullets out of 22RF cases when I was much much younger. It's a real pleasure to hear from somebody that actually did so. Thanks!!

 

[Metal God]

Edit/add- Stress relieving happens at 400F degrees.

I would change that to "starts" at 450* . I guess since it starts there one could say you stress relieved the brass if it reached that temp but you really want it atleast 600* to have a real effect on the brass in a way which reloaders would want . Reason being is you want the softness to reach the point that the lines start flattening out . This will more likely give you a hardness more consistent from case to case . If you are in that straight drop off point It's my opinion you will have less consistent bullet release/hold then if you get the temp past that drop off .

That all assumes we start with the understanding the 1 hour aspect below does not apply here because the heat source is substantially hotter then the intended target temp . This chart shows how long you leave a hunk/block of brass in a heat source that is the same as your intended target temp .

 

[HowieG]

I would change that to "starts" at 450* . I guess since it starts there one could say you stress relieved the brass if it reached that temp but you really want it at least 600* to have a real effect on the brass in a way which reloaders would want . Reason being is you want the softness to reach the point that the lines start flattening out . This will more likely give you a hardness more consistent from case to case . If you are in that straight drop off point It's my opinion you will have less consistent bullet release/hold then if you get the temp past that drop off .

That all assumes we start with the understanding the 1 hour aspect below does not apply here because the heat source is substantially hotter then the intended target temp . This chart shows how long you leave a hunk/block of brass in a heat source that is the same as your intended target temp .

View attachment 1052743

Agreed. That partial hard vertical is harder to hit consistently than that mostly flat line beyond.

 

[HowieG]

I was watching a commercial pitch about an annealing machine and the guy started talking tin. That was pretty much it for me. If he doesn't know most cartridge brass is 70:30 copper/zinc, then he isn't selling to me. Reminds me of the solar guys who don't know the efficiency of their panels.

 

[jmorris]

This is a good read on the subject.

https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

 

[dgod]

The buttons are used to adjust the timer for each bullet as it passes. Your brass is WAY TOO LONG, cut it down, too little is better, run a few, look at them, adjust timer, do it again, continue, then write it down for that caliber. Then you have a log for reference.

Good Luck
Dan

 

[AJC1]

Interestingly enough jonnys reloading bench did a bit last night on this and he provided links to the testing I watched from Eric cortina's page. I am interested in building an induction version.

 

[jmorris]

I guess I will stay away from MAPP glass torches.

The main reason to stay away from MAPP gas and use propane is that the flame color change indicator you get by using propane isn’t there.

There is also a high concentration of hydrogen in the MAPP flame when compared to propane.

Seeing that many are still using methods that over/under anneal and are of questionable repeatability, I would suggest a “control group” you don’t mess with in combination with the brass one is annealing, both loaded and tested the same. This will make the results clear and not assumed or just hoped for.

 

[HowieG]

The main reason to stay away from MAPP gas and use propane is that the flame color change indicator you get by using propane isn’t there.

There is also a high concentration of hydrogen in the MAPP flame when compared to propane.

Seeing that many are still using methods that over/under anneal and are of questionable repeatability, I would suggest a “control group” you don’t mess with in combination with the brass one is annealing, both loaded and tested the same. This will make the results clear and not assumed or just hoped for.

Frankly, I don't think any of it is really worth the trouble from a time/energy expended standpoint. Any benefits of a personal annealing program are most likely mental rather than actual unless you are doing a case forming operation and are losing a certain percentage of your cases due to split necks. I imagine annealing would be a benefit in that case. It would be easily quantifiable as well. That is hypothetical in my case because I don't do any such operations. My brother turns .223 brass into some kind of 7mm wildcat, and he does lose cases in the process, but up to this point, he just eats the loss.

Currently, I consider most claims of annealing benefits to be the equivalent of the claim that killing all the livestock will reduce global warming. Proving or disproving it would be expensive and time consuming.

 

[jmorris]

There certainly are a lot of variables.

There are a lot of benchrest shooters that don’t anneal at all and the winner is the person with the smallest one hole group. It’s not uncommon to get 20+ cycles from a case. That said, the case is generally modified from its original form and sized with a die that was machined for that particular rifles chamber. Not a lot of movement going on. How little? I can fire a case several times and not even size it. Wipe off the case, replace the primer, charge and seat a bullet. Try that with any factory rifle/ammunition combination.

That’s generally not what’s happening with most stuff. Where ammunition generally well “under” and “blown out” enough upon firing a fresh bullet just falls to the bottom if set in the mouth. It is this work hardening that can cause failure and annealing is trying to mitigate.

Both concepts can and do work.

 

[HowieG]

I don't mention benchrest in an annealing conversation for exactly that reason. Obviously, using a benchrest chamber in a hunting rifle isn't viable.

I think what would do the most for my case life is a replaceable primer pocket. I don't think the brass case manufacturers would be motivated to develop that.

 

[jmorris]

I imagine annealing would be a benefit in that case.

If it wasn’t MFG’s sure waste a lot of money doing it, a number of times, during the process.



FWIW unlike most rounds people buy, mil spec ammo doesn’t allow the final anneal process to be polished off, visible sign it was performed.

 

[jmorris]

Obviously, using a benchrest chamber in a hunting rifle isn't viable.

Why? I suppose 6mm ppc wouldn’t be the best round for hunting everything but as far as precise cartridge/chamber relationship, why would it be unsuitable? I sure fire a lot less shots hunting. I don’t like to seat out to the lands in a hunting rifle because I might need to load and unload without firing. I guess that’s not always the sweet spot anyway.

 

[HowieG]

Why? I suppose 6mm ppc wouldn’t be the best round for hunting everything but as far as precise cartridge/chamber relationship, why would it be unsuitable? I sure fire a lot less shots hunting. I don’t like to seat out to the lands in a hunting rifle because I might need to load and unload without firing. I guess that’s not always the sweet spot anyway.

Oh, it's certainly viable on a custom basis if you wanted to spend the money. I was referring to normal factory rifles with factory ammo. Too much variation in production. Not economically viable. Besides, you really don't need benchrest accuracy out of the typical bambi gun.

Some factory rifles are pretty darned tight. My Cooper M54 22-250, admittedly a semi-custom, has a tight chamber and throat. The first time I used a Hornady OAL kit on it, I was surprised. The throat was tight enough that I had to play around with it some to determine where the rifling contact really occurred. My M77V 22-250 not so much. I use different sizing dies for each.

 

[HowieG]

If it wasn’t MFG’s sure waste a lot of money doing it, a number of times, during the process.

View attachment 1052851

FWIW unlike most rounds people buy, mil spec ammo doesn’t allow the final anneal process to be polished off, visible sign it was performed.

View attachment 1052850

I've seen factory Lapua brass with annealing patterns still on them. Of course, the factory forming processes work harden the heck out of the brass.

 

[HowieG]

A lot of people would look at that picture of that mil spec ammo and say that it is over annealed.

 

[Skgreen]

FWIW,,, Using my Annealeez v2,,,

Torch temp/flame size is a bit of a challenge to set exactly the same every time I anneal.
For that reason, my experience has been that there is no 'once you establish a time, you never need to change it' approach.
With each set-up of my equipment, I utilize my preferred method of determining 'annealed' and adjust accordingly.

YMMV