Annealing Tips?

[HowieG]

FWIW,,, Using my Annealeez v2,,,

Torch temp/flame size is a bit of a challenge to set exactly the same every time I anneal.
For that reason, my experience has been that there is no 'once you establish a time, you never need to change it' approach.
With each set-up of my equipment, I utilize my preferred method of determining 'annealed' and adjust accordingly.

YMMV

Whatever makes you happy certainly works for me. I certainly am not going to spend the money and the time to actually come up with quantifiable data on this stuff. It's interesting, but not that interesting. Maybe after I win the lotto or my oil wells come in....

 

[Demi-human]

Torch temp/flame size is a bit of a challenge to set exactly the same every time I anneal.

I use a twenty pound cylinder with a grill regulator. An adapter hose runs to the machine, a V1. When it’s set up and I am done for the day, I turn the tank off and let the torch run out by its self, leaving everything set where it is. The bigger tank lets the torch burn more steadily during the cycle. It takes much less fiddling with it.

I know annealed brass lasts longer. I know the annealed brass sizes more consistently, I can measure it and feel it in the press. I know annealed brass seats bullets more consistently, I can measure it with comparator.

I know it shoots small,I just don’t know that it shooters smaller, I wet tumble and that ruins brass anyway…

 

[gifbohane]

What I am getting is strong opinions on the uselessness of annealing. I do get it.

I was hoping that a few of you could give me some concrete and empirical data for 223 and the machine. For instance 1 inch flame on the throat for 5 seconds.

 

[jmorris]

I was hoping that a few of you could give me some concrete and empirical data for 223 and the machine. For instance 1 inch flame on the throat for 5 seconds.

Use propane, start the machine fast, and begin to feed it brass. In small increments, slow the machine until you can see the flame begin to change from blue to orange at the end of the dwell time, in the flame. Speed it back up slightly and that’s it.

You are looking for this.



Slow until it starts doing this, speed it back up until it just quits.



Done.

 

[Demi-human]

But what I see is strong opinions on the uselessness of annealing.

I find that an “opinion of useless” is often much louder and ornery then those that that find it useful, no matter the object, technique or activity.

“Some they do, some they don’t, and some you just can’t tell.
Some they will, some they won’t, and some it’s just as well.”

An example.

I anneal my brass so it lasts longer. I have an acquaintance that reloads also. One time. Then he throws out the brass.
He says, “It’s reloading, the one time, not reload and reload and reload… You’re gonna blow up your rifle.”

M’kay…

His Dad taught him. And taught him, “the case is only good once, reloaded once is fine but not as good as factory.”
If Glen Zediker and Joyce Hornady themselves came to teach him handloading with well used brass he would scoff at their “dangerous” practices.

There is no helping him. He knows everything already. And has lots of brass to give me.

He doesn’t shoot as much as I, being more a hunter than shooter. Annealing is useless to him. For me, processing range brass from himself and the local LE Range, taking the crimps out and trimming everything, means I don’t just throw away good brass I’ve spent time on.

He also doesn’t shoot my rifles or reloads, well, he does try them out once, but that doesn’t stop his self righteous complaints of annealing and the time wasted.
I just don’t tell him I’ve got seven or eight cycles on the cases I’m using, effectively making their cost to me less than one penny, for the ones I actually purchase.
Holy Cow, do I only anneal because I’m a cheap skate?
No, but yes, yes I am.

I was hoping that a few of you could give me some concrete and empirical data for 223 and the machine.

Empirical data is tough to find. How many different brass manufacturers are there?
JMorris has the easiest way to set it, and like HowieG says the window is large.

Like cooking steak. It needs to be done, but not burnt.
Can one use infrared and internal thermometers and grill surface thermomobobs with a seconds elapsed timer that alerts a phone app to get a perfect steak? Yes.
Can one just throw a steak on the grill and press it with a thumb or look at it and know when it’s done? Yup.

Five to seven seconds, based upon the flame heat output. Flame length is variable with the torch head design. Different fuels burn at different temperatures. Different brass anneals differently.

I think at Millpond I’ll connect my Annealer directly to the house Natural Gas supply. Dedicated wall mount.

 

[Skgreen]

I use a twenty pound cylinder with a grill regulator.

20#'er here as well, but no regulator,,,,
Time to go shopping! Thanks!

 

[HowieG]

I find that an “opinion of useless” is often much louder and ornery then those that that find it useful, no matter the object, technique or activity.

“Some they do, some they don’t, and some you just can’t tell.
Some they will, some they won’t, and some it’s just as well.”

An example.

I anneal my brass so it lasts longer. I have an acquaintance that reloads also. One time. Then he throws out the brass.
He says, “It’s reloading, the one time, not reload and reload and reload… You’re gonna blow up your rifle.”

M’kay…

His Dad taught him. And taught him, “the case is only good once, reloaded once is fine but not as good as factory.”
If Glen Zediker and Joyce Hornady themselves came to teach him handloading with well used brass he would scoff at their “dangerous” practices.

There is no helping him. He knows everything already. And has lots of brass to give me.

He doesn’t shoot as much as I, being more a hunter than shooter. Annealing is useless to him. For me, processing range brass from himself and the local LE Range, taking the crimps out and trimming everything, means I don’t just throw away good brass I’ve spent time on.

He also doesn’t shoot my rifles or reloads, well, he does try them out once, but that doesn’t stop his self righteous complaints of annealing and the time wasted.
I just don’t tell him I’ve got seven or eight cycles on the cases I’m using, effectively making their cost to me less than one penny, for the ones I actually purchase.
Holy Cow, do I only anneal because I’m a cheap skate?
No, but yes, yes I am.

And yet Glen Zediker didn't anneal. I have also, in days past, known those that loaded once and tossed. I wonder if they have changed their tune now that brass is hard to come by?

 

[gifbohane]

Use propane, start the machine fast, and begin to feed it brass. In small increments, slow the machine until you can see the flame begin to change from blue to orange at the end of the dwell time, in the flame. Speed it back up slightly and that’s it.

You are looking for this.

View attachment 1053030

Slow until it starts doing this, speed it back up until it just quits.

View attachment 1053031

Done.

Perfect----Thank You!

 

[HowieG]

Sometimes, well perhaps a lot of the time, gizmos and gear is the hobby. I personally like Wilson seaters and Chargemasters and such. If you have the scratch to afford a kick a$$ Dillon progressive, I will look at you with envy. On the other hand, if you spend $1500 on an AMP annealer, and then start talking to me about saving pennies on brass, please don't be insulted when I look askance at you and say, "Bless your heart".

 

[Nature Boy]

I anneal before every resize for the imputed benefits of consistent neck tension. I take this largely on faith based on the collective conventional wisdom. It might be contributing to my pursuit of accuracy, but how much is unknown.

If I didn't have an Annealeze making it easy for me I might not be doing it.

 

[MrMagumba]

I built a homemade annealer from my kid's rotary clay pot maker. It makes me laugh every time I look at it. The A-10 round simulates the propane torch. Is annealing worth it and is it measurable? Here is a possible way to tell.
Range test: Velocity deviation for 5 shot groups (260 Rem)
New PPU brass - SD 19
Rem brass fired 3 times no annealing - SD 42
Rem brass fired 3 times annealed for 6 count - SD 26
Rem brass fired 3 times annealed for 7 count - SD 14
More consistent neck tension? I think so.

Having trouble finding reloading dies for that 30mm. This shortage is getting ridiculous

 

[bummer7]

I anneal when cases are in short supply, expensive, and hard to find. That said, I anneal cases every other reloading and have found 5 to 7 seconds under a propane torch works well for me.

I also found a one pound bottle of propane is cheap at a litle under $4 a bottle. More than enough propane gas to anneal a thousand plus cases.

 

[lgjhn]

I have the Anealeze Gen 2 machine and have used it a whole bunch for both 5.56 and 7.62.
I set the flame aimed right at the neck/shoulder break with the center of the flame just barely off the brass itself (per the video on their web page as well as other UT vids).
I set the dwell time such that it’s just a tiny before any orange flame begins come off the brass (setup is done with junk brass and with the lights off/dim so I can see it) On my machine, that’s a display speed readout of 44-46 giving me a dwell time of somewhere between 4-6 seconds, usually 5.
Dunno if that helps ya any, but that’s how I’ve set my machine up. It works quite well...at least for me.

 

[jmorris]

Perfect----Thank You!

You are welcome. I’ll make a video when I get a chance. It’s one of those things that takes longer to explain than it does to see it done.

 

[gifbohane]

FWIW,,, Using my Annealeez v2,,,

With each set-up of my equipment, I utilize my preferred method of determining 'annealed' and adjust accordingly.

YMMV

Can you explain your "preferred method?"

 

[Skgreen]

Lights off, looking inside the case mouth, determine when the red glow starts appearing, back it off a tad.

 

[JFrank]

I don't mention benchrest in an annealing conversation for exactly that reason. Obviously, using a benchrest chamber in a hunting rifle isn't viable.

I think what would do the most for my case life is a replaceable primer pocket. I don't think the brass case manufacturers would be motivated to develop that.

Glenn Kulzer is longe range shooter of the year with 8 new IBS records tells us he does not anneal at all.

 

[Skgreen]

Purely a guess, but I assume Glenn begins with better quality brass than I do and doesn't reload it near as many times...

 

[Demi-human]

Purely a guess, but I assume Glenn begins with better quality brass than I do and doesn't reload it near as many times...

I wonder how much his rifle cost him…
Price per round probably isn’t in the world record equation either!

 

[JFrank]

Glenn shows us there is another side to the coin, by testing for himself he makes performance based decisions.
I thought it might be interesting to point that out.

 

[HowieG]

Purely a guess, but I assume Glenn begins with better quality brass than I do and doesn't reload it near as many times...

Or he preps his brass more. I think the big difference between Hornady brass and Lapua brass is Lapua basically does the prep for you and charges accordingly. Glen Zediker, who shot NRA High Power Rifle, used Winchester brass. According the precision rifle blog in 2015, out of the top 100 PRS shooters, about 46 used Lapua brass and 34 used Hornady. The rest used Norma, Winchester, and Nosler.

 

[Skgreen]

One thing is for certain,,,, You could give me all of Glen / Glenn's gear/ammo/mantra, what ever, and I'd still never be able to duplicate their results.
There will always be a 'King', and then there are all the rest of us, each with our own goals/skillsets.
Me? I'm just in it the entertainment!

 

[JFrank]

I wonder how much his rifle cost him…
Price per round probably isn’t in the world record equation either!

Sure there can be a financial commitment competing at the highest level as with most hobbies, although you don’t have to be rich to have good load development skills, it doesn’t cost anything to pay attention to reading conditions and gun handling.

 

[jmorris]

Purely a guess, but I assume Glenn begins with better quality brass than I do and doesn't reload it near as many times...

I imagine it has a LOT more to do with how the case fits the chamber and how much the size die has to move the brass.

You can ruin the best brass pretty quick, forming the case smaller than the chamber and blowing it back out every firing.

It’s not unreasonable to expect 20 firings out of a case when the case/chamber/die combination is correct, without annealing.

 

[HowieG]

I imagine it has a LOT more to do with how the case fits the chamber and how much the size die has to move the brass.

You can ruin the best brass pretty quick, forming the case smaller than the chamber and blowing it back out every firing.

It’s not unreasonable to expect 20 firings out of a case when the case/chamber/die combination is correct, without annealing.

And don't shoot Winchester 1895's or any other gun that has a rear bolt lock up.