Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by HMMurdock, Aug 29, 2007.
45's Hit more of the target
Aside from .22, the .357 and .45acp are my two favorite handgun rounds. I prefer 38/357 in wheelguns, and .45 for bottom feeders.
But honestly, regardless if which sex I am. If I were told I'd be limited to these two calibers, regardless of what I liked, I'd be pretty angry with you.
A handgun is one of the most personal tools one can find. There is no one be-all, end-all handgun. If there were all of us would own and carry it. Don't keyhole your future wife. All you will do is go He-Man on her and drive her away from carrying what she is comfortable with. If you really love her let her try as many guns as she can shoot, and SHE can pick which caliber is best for her.
I think the .357 magnum is the better man-stopper.
But I would choose the .45 because it's more pleasant to shoot for me, follow-up shots are quicker for me, and it offers more magazine capacity.
Black Talons were discontinued quite long ago. Why carry 10+ year old ammo that has since been outclassed by newer offerings?
I like the .45acp for carry.
You mention SD? Is this a purse gun? 357 recoil and follow up shots obviously becomes more difficult with a shorter or lighter gun and that you already know. I apologize in advance for not sticking to your poll options but have you considered a 9mm, perhaps an XD or other make of your choice?
I have owned 9mm's but do not currently have one. Conventional 1911's vs wheel gun 357..............one more round?
There is a compromise that fits her needs but only she will know what it is.
I believe a person should have a personal attachment to a SD gun. Know it, love it but by all means feel comfortable with it. Heck a slingshot is better than nothing.
I like both rounds just fine, but like the .357 a little better. Just a personal preference.
The only handgun I have ever used "for real" is a Colt M357 -- and it did the job, both times.
But today I carry an M1911 (a Kimber Classic MK I). For ergonometrics and robustness, it beats a revolver. It terms of actual shootings, it seems the equal of the .357. And it carries easier.
Id take her to a gun store and let her pick the gun she is comfortable holding, whatever caliber it is.
As far as the .357 vs. .45 thing, .357 has better #'s, but I'll take my .45 because, as said above, being comfortable with the weapon and shooting it well is a heck of a lot more important than the round itself.
Ballisticly, I think both rounds are fine as defensive handgun rounds go.
I don't like how much more noise and flash the 357 typically has over the 45.
Black Talons were discontinued. Ranger Talons, Winchester's improved and updated, more PC, law-enforcement only line, is much more recent. But there are sources who'll sell to anyone, if you look hard enough.
I prefer the blunter expanded shape of 180 gr Rem Golden Sabers in .40, and frankly, you'll never catch me buying Winchester since their LE only policy on the only good ammo they make disgusts me, but if I absolutely had to pick between .357 mag and .45 ACP, it'd be .45 230 WRT. It's quite a good round.
I will take a .45 Hydrashock, thank you. 12 inches of penetration and a final diameter of .7 inches. Even if it fails to open, it won't shrink.
When I owned a roofing company my wife wanted to work with me. She had to have her own tools. I encouraged her to buy a brand X tape measure and a brand Y knife and a brand Z chalk line.
But when it came time to pick a roofing hatchet, the one tool that puts beans on the table and blisters on the hand, I took her to the store that had the biggest variety and encouraged her to try them all for fit and feel.
Of course she liked the most expensive one. It had the best balance and fit her hand best.
She got that one, and after a couple years dropped out of the roofing part of the business to keep the books and raise the kids. I got her hatchet.
Compare apples to apples.
A 4" 7-round 686 is the same size and weight as a 1911 - about 38 ounces.
Shooting 125gr or even 158gr .357 Mags out of it not at all unpleasant - just a gentle push and slight muzzle rise.
Sure, if you shoot one from 24-ounce 3" steel J-frame, you will feel it. If you shoot it out of 12-ounce Scandium, you will remember it until the day you die. But a comparable, full-size L-frame? Don't worry about it.
My wife had no problem whatsoever shooting .357 out of my 686 - she was pleasantly surprised when switching from 38 to 357 as she expected much worse.
The abundance of grips for revolvers and ability to do a surgery on them can insure most comfortable feel - which may be very important for a woman that does not practice much.
My vote is 357 - though for indoor HD use I would consider loading the first couple of chambers with 38+P - apparently the blast indoor is quite impresive, flash and bang.
True. The .357 Magnum is about 10 decibels higher than .38 Specials... and on one sight I looked at, it beat .30-06 from an 18" barrel by a hair (noisewise).
.357 Magnum goes up to 11.
Just keep some elbow room on your credit card if you do this. I did the same when I got married and my wife picked out a 226. $$
One last time: She's already going to be the one to pick the one she likes, nor is she somehow limited to these two calibers. This was simply a hypothetical.
Anyone care to comment on the misconception(?) that .357 Magnum has a tendency to overpenetrate?
Also, with the .45ACP being an obviously larger round, what is it that the .357 does that makes up for lack in size? How does the muzzle velocity translate into cleaning someone's clock when the projectile only expands to be so large...?
There is no satisfactory solution to achieving stopping power without increasing penetration. You want one, you get the other.
Any effective ammo - in any caliber - overpenetrates. There is none that would not go through a few plaster walls.
You can go with birdshot, of course, but people have been known to take a load in the chest point-blank and not sustain debilitating injuries.
With .357 you have more load options without worrying if that particular type of ammy will chamber reliably or work the slide.
Energy is proportional to square of velocity, so a lighter .357 packs more energy than a heavier .45.
Velocity is what makes for reliable expansion - and expanded .357 may well leave bigger hole than expanded .45.
I love the 357 Magnum, but my follow up shots are slower.
Therefore I carry and shoot a 45 acp revolver when I'm off-duty. Even with +P 185 grain Corbon loads I find it recoils less than what I would carry in the 357. To me the only 357 load I would use is Federal 125 grain JHP's or Remington 125 grain SJHP's.
Take a look at the new S&W Revolvers if you decide to go with a wheelie. The Model 22-4 is real nice, and so is the 625. The nice thing about a revolver is, you do not have "feeding" issues and the bottom plate of the magazine won't fall off when you are shooting.
On the other hand, a grain of unburned powder under the ejector star won't put your automatic out of action, and the cylinder won't fall off when you go to reload. (Both problems have been reported here fairly recently.)
I still consider the .357 mag King of the Hill as a self defense round. With that said, I don't own any revolvers (YET). I own autos in 9mm, .357 Sig, .40, and .45.
i carry a .45 ACP with 185 grain JHP Winchester Super X's .45 ACP gets my vote. I like the expansion and the follow up shots are much quicker.
But a .45 or .357 is a lot of power for some of the smaller ladies out there, smaller men too.
Take her to the range with a wide selection of pistols to choose from, which ever she shots the best with and likes to shoot, get her one of those, and i don't think you would have to worry about 1 shot stopping power.
My S & W 625 with the 225 gr. Barnes XPB or
my S & W 686P with 180 gr. Hornady XTP both
shoot well, and recoil is nearly the same
Oh, the 625 load is in Auto RIm, the reloads are
FUll Moon clips in .45 ACP 225 gr. SWC.
which is faster than the 7 round HKS
Speedloaders for the .357.
I feel like pistol wounds (assuming they penetrate enough to reach vital organs) depend greatly on caliber. A 357 that expands all the way might only expand to .5 (give or take) on a great day. A 45 on a great day might expand to .7, which seems to me to be a great deal bigger when we're talking about big bleeding holes. If you don't hit a heart or a brain or a spinal cord, you're left with: which round will make a bigger hole to bleed out of.
I would also like to add, that for me personally, I think 50AE is a better man stopper than 357 or 45. However, I'm not anywhere near comfortable with carrying or shooting a .50, so I'd say let her decide.
Overpenetration means a bullet goes through its intended target, and hurts someone or something else. The .357 defensive loads do not tend to overpenetrate. Hunting loads, designed for deep penetration in large animals, may indeed overpenetrate when used against human targets. The 125-grain loads have been criticized for years as not penetrating deeply enough, being accused of "blowing up" and such. I shot a skinny bad guy with a 125-grain Federal Classic, and it did not overpenetrate, but penetrated quite deeply enough, and fragmented. I don't mind SOME degree of fragmentation, and still use the same load today in my 4" Rugers. MISSING is an entirely different subject, as that discussion involves penetration through building materials. Velocity will increase penetration in building materials, all else being equal. I have not conducted tests in building materials, so cannot speak with authority on that. I have recovered .45 ACP bullets, that appeared to be hardball FMJ, that had penetrated the rear doors of a van, and then penetrated multiple seats, before lodging in sheet metal in the dash area. That's quite a bit of penetration into a vehicle.
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