Any point in guns for self defence?

[Hazwaste]

"...if in a carjacking situation, and you have a gun pulled on you. the fact you have a gun could cause your death, all it takes is one trigger happy criminal and you're gone."

So just bend over and take it huh? Sorry, but my momma raised a man, not a sheep.

Is cowering to an armed criminal going to keep him from shooting his victim? Or the next victim? Are you willing to bet that the criminal hasn't already decided to kill the witnesses? I'm not.

Or perhaps, it could be that each person has the natural right and duty to provide protection for themselves and their families. I subscribe to this, just as I subscribe to the notion that my family and I should be buckled in when we ride in a car, or that we should have a fire extinguisher on hand in the house in case of a small fire.

Here in the U.S., carjackings, home invasions, kidnappings, murders, and assaults are not things that happen to everybody else. I live in a sleepy little town of 25,000 in southwest Louisiana. A place that you would not think would have crime. Yet, each week, it seems, there is another violent crime in the area. Am I or my wife willing to surrender our family to this when we have the ability to protect each other? That would be unimaginable to us.

Just last week three very large "scruffy" looking men came to our front door while I was at work and my wife was at home with the kids. One of these men kept yelling something unintelligible through the door in an attempt to get my wife to open it. When she pulled the curtain back in the window next to the door revealing her .357 magnum snubbie in her hand and my son holding my AK while standing next to her, the men took off. She had called the police before she went to the door because of her suspicions. The police showed up exactly ONE HOUR LATER!!! And they did nothing, because, of course, the men had long since left the neighborhood.

 

[N3rday]

The "it won't happen to me" approach is a big problem in this country. Not just gun-wise, I'm talking drunk driving, overuse of drugs, and illegal/dangerous stuff like that.

"It probably won't happen to me" just isn't good enough.

 

[Hazwaste]

"...I never said things didn't happen, just not often and did the guy trying to get into your house try to shoot you?"

OK, I have to speak up again. Just last week in Sugarland, Texas, which is considered an upper-scale town southwest of Houston, a family of four entered their home to find someone ransacking their home. The intruder opened fire on the family, shooting all four. Two of them (the mom and youngest son) are dead. The other two (dad and oldest son) survived.

The family was completely unarmed and helpless. The father should be ashamed.

This is but one example of many cases of home invaders killing their victims.

I recommend that if you wish to read about instances when people successfully defended themselves with firearms, go to

Self Defense Stories

 

[mod12]

sasno & ossie

are you two the celtic incarnation of stan & ollie? methinks your potatoes are too long in the pot.

 

[P95Carry]

Let me add this small caveat for you NI guys ... this notion that having a gun will only escalate a situation or result in a shooting .... when having no gun will not......... (and a BG with nothing to lose .. {read Armoredman's post again re criminals and recidovists} ..... will NOT be in the least influenced by someone being unarmed ... and think - ''oh, better not shoot this guy cos he's defenceless''!!!) .....

Stop and think a moment .... and I am talking about the legit, sensible and responsible carry person. It is NOT a good idea to shoot anyone ... period!! We are all too well aware that the consequences can be dire ... and even if a shooting is actually justified and an ''in extremis'' survival measure ... the carrier is answerable ...... that in and of itself is a VERY good disuader, for use of lethal force, believe me.

Instead you will find - and I think pretty well all here to a person, if carriers ... will back me up. We try EVEN harder to stay away from trouble ... we are MORE likely to swallow pride and back off from a confrontation ..... we would rather run than shoot.

Can you not see that this is far from being an encouragement for any CCW to want to use his/her piece. Carry is not by and large taken lightly - it is IMO an awesome responsibility .... but it is there against that freak occurrence when ... a BG has a gun .. and you might just need to stop him ... before you are just another mortuary slab statistic.

 

[Hazwaste]

"...just because it's your RIGHT to own one dosen't mean every single household should own one, just because your a citizen dosen't mean u should be a gun owner there should be good screening and a 'good' reason to own one"

1. Just because you think that not every household should own one is not a reason that I should NOT be allowed to have one.

2. Good reason to own one??? And who makes that decision pray tell? The all-powerful all-knowing all-benevolent masters in your government? They're just PEOPLE SAS, people who are just as susceptible to the temptations of power and corruption as anybody would be (see World History for some good examples). People who have exactly the same natural rights as you have. What gives THEM the right to take away YOUR natural rights or MINE based upon their perception of our "good reason"?

What has happened to you and the rest of the UK? Y'all were once such a proud and powerful people.

 

[ossie]

mod12: are you two the celtic incarnation of stan & ollie? methinks your potatoes are too long in the pot.

there was me thinking i'd found some intelligent rational people, and all of a sudden you come along and reaffirm my belief in the idiocy of mankind with a nice, happy, all-american racist comment.

thanks.

---

nico: so you can honestly say that you'd rather be killed than kill a person who's trying to murder you? I'm glad you're on the other side of an ocean.

kill or be killed? that's the american way, right. paranoia doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

---

to clarify my carjacking point, if a criminal has a gun pointed at you when you stop at traffic lights or a stop sign etc. you're pretty screwed either way, pull your gun out, perpetrator will in all probability panic and shoot straight into your head, you're relying a lot on luck. if you cooperate, at least in europe, you stand a much greater chance of not leaving a mighty big red stain on your cars upholstery.

i would much rather live in this "troubled land" than in the Land of the American Dream.

Thank you, and goodnight.

 

[mod12]

gun control

why are we responding to these "SUBJECTS"? they live in a society that has always been governed by a smarter and wiser people. trying to instill a desire for freedom and self determination is akin to trying to break a dog from licking himself. if either of these "SUBJECTS" had to make a decision he'd soil his pants!:banghead:

 

[Hazwaste]

"Why are we responding to these subjects?"

Because the original poster asked legitimate questions. And I'm happy to have an opportunity to attempt to reach someone who doesn't agree with me, rather than preaching to the choir. Makes for a much more interesting discussion.

 

[mod12]

gun control

haz, i'm going to have to add "sarcasm" to the things they don't understand too.........

 

[LifeNRA]

This sentence by Sasnofear should have told everyone what kind of person he is.
== "i bet some of the people here got loaded up after the washington sniper, haha, the thought of it."==
I dont remember it being a laughing matter.

 

[Hazwaste]

Yeah, the old "racist" accusation is sort of meaningless nowadays what with how many times it's thrown around. Guess the mention of potatoes is now considered an insult.

 

[BHPshooter]

but i think he was trying to bring your nation up to our level. how can a nation with 11,000+ gun deaths per year, which retains the death penalty as a "deterrent" call itself a civilised, democratic nation?

Answer a question for me: why, when someone is asked where they live, do they answer "Oregon," or "Chile," or "Germany;" rather than "Earth?" The answer, my dear subjects of the crown, is that there are other nations for a reason. You Europeans can do whatever you want to, and we Americans can do whatever we want to, and we should both leave each other the hell alone. You want to punish someone more harshly for defending his own home than the criminals who were ransacking it? Fine. Whatever. If we want to shoot an intruder dead on sight in our homes, then that's none of your business.

Do you want to release dangerous criminals back into society to resume their crime streaks after 5 years of time? Fine. If we want to give a psychotic killer the chair to ensure that he never kills again, then that's none of your damn business.

See where I'm going with this? Two nations, two philosophies. Peace comes not from trying to make everyone like you are, but to accept the customs of others and to come to and understanding with them.

...just because it's your RIGHT to own one dosen't mean every single household should own one, just because your a citizen dosen't mean u should be a gun owner there should be good screening and a 'good' reason to own one

Please read the United States Declaration of Independence. This pretty much explains everything, but I will sum up: We believe in Rights. Rights are bestowed upon us by (and ONLY by) God. These rights are many. One of these rights is to defend yourself. Now, logically, since we don't have fangs with venom, or claws, it's only LOGICAL that we should carry a sidearm with us to defend our bodily integrity. God is who decides who has "good reason" to own a gun, and as far as I'm concerned, a bolt of lightning would hit anyone that shouldn't. Does that mean bad guys could get guns? You bet. But they can get guns now -- even easier than we can! But hey, that's what freedom's supposed to be like.

Now I know that's hard to swallow, but this is the way we live here (or would like to), and we'll go ahead and let you live the way you want to there.

kill or be killed? that's the american way, right.

That's right. The fact that you don't get that to begin with means that you probably never will. That's sad.

Cheers,
Wes

 

[Justin]

If you want to keep this thread open, the tone of the messages being posted here had better remain civil.

 

[Beren]

There's the difference between you and I, I don't see a separation. A concealed weapon is a concealed weapon. Sadly, I believe criminals cause a lot more problems than reasonable men prevent, and more concealed weapons will do nothing to change that.

Let's back up a step: do you see a separation between a criminal and a "reasonable man?" Do you believe your life is worth protecting, or would you allow an assailant to kill you so that you don't need to risk killing somebody? Would you even want to /risk/ death at an assailant's hands, knowing them to be armed (with a rock, a club, a knife, a gun, or otherwise)? Would you rather women submit to rape or fight back against their attacker? (Stats here in the U.S. indicate a woman is LEAST likely to be injured if she employs armed resistence against a would-be rapist.)

You might find this hard to digest, but I'm a pacifist - right up until the point at which my life is reasonably endangered. I will not use force to settle a dispute, but I have no qualms using force to preserve my life against unwarranted aggression. We're not the ones you have to worry about, and our firearms only speak out of utmost need. (Or, I admit, at the range - but that's more along the lines of barking. )

Guns in our hands constitute a net /benefit/ to society.

Concealed weapons won't prevent idiots and scum from causing problems. They will, however, better enable to protect myself in case they decide to try to make me another victim. A concealed handgun in my hand does nothing to help you, and nothing to harm you - but it might well help me, and you have no right to deny me that protection.

 

[sasnofear]

ok there seems to be some misunderstanding. Me nor ossie EVER said it's better to just be killed. umm, human beings...want to survive, the point that is being made is that CCW will mean people are going to grab a gun in situations that deadly force can be avoided. someone said that the CCW gun is an inatimate object it dosen't cause any more deaths it wont jump out and bite anyone it dosen't have a mind of its own.....correct but the person it is attached to does and if there is potential trouble and you have a CCW you are just going to leave it in your belt? of course not, your going to draw. i fear jumpey ppl with firearms a lot more than criminals, the was i thing on TV with a minor car crash that turned out into a shoot out because the woman drew her pistol and kept it at her side for what ever reason, so the other guy got into his car and got his then people were shot, if these idiots didn't have these weapons the worst that could of happened was raised tempers. lets face it if you want to have a microcosm of how jumpey people cause the loss of life instead of retraint.....just take iraq, at the start of the war more allies were killed by americans than iraq soldiers. if it moved they shot it.

 

[sasnofear]

the bottom line is people are more likly to die as result of jumpey CCW holders than being attacked my criminal.

p.s, someone said earlier that i was going on about terrorists and that is only 1% of the problem (mabey frank?) well i think terorists are 0% of the problem if you bothered to read the forum i am saying america individuals have very little/nothing to fear of personally being attacked in a way that they can prevent it witha a CCW

 

[ossie]

sorry, let me change where i said racism.

perhaps i should have said, "anti-irish comments", i think every intelligent person here knows that millions of irish people died in a famine in the 19th century due to the potato blight. potato isn't an insult, except when used in the context of insulting an irish person.

---

TheFumegator: The answer, my dear subjects of the crown, is that there are other nations for a reason

1) i'm one of the residents of Northern Ireland opposed to British rule over N. Ireland. I believe in the right to self-determination of N. Ireland's people and am opposed to the use of force to gain a united Ireland. I am also a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.

2) when/where did i say that we should all be one global unified utopia? i fully agree that can't happen. especially, as the US govt. can't seem to understand, with the Sword of Damocles (read threat of US Force) hanging over its head.


--

mod12: if either of these "SUBJECTS" had to make a decision he'd soil his pants!

oh we're "SUBJECTS" now? "SUBJECTS" of the Crown, I presume you mean... too bad as i've already mentioned, I'm a citizen of an independent Republic isn't it. Also, unfortunately for you, the nation i currently live in is not run by a monarchy any more . It is the longest running democratic system in the world, and is run by an elected Parliament.:banghead:

TheFumegator: Rights are bestowed upon us by (and ONLY by) God

If you remember your US Constitution you'll surely know that you live in a secular nation. I could get into the whole 2nd Amendment thing, but I've heard both sides of the argument more than enough. We learn US politics here, you know

---

one final point, someone earlier, probably mod12 said "maybe i can't understand your brogue" or similar, to sasnofear. fact is, only people who live in the South of Ireland have a brogue. minor point, just ensure you get your facts right next time, or i'll have to assume all americans are gun-wielding cowboys.

 

[P95Carry]

SAS ...... you may well not have managed to catch up on the (not inconsiderable!!) number of posts but let me reiterate what I said a while ago .......

Overall - you will find - that a CCW individual is gonna do almost anything possible to keep away from trouble ... way more than an unarmed person IMO ..... anyone using a gun is ANSWERABLE - CCW carries no special legal protection. Use a weapon and expect to be arrested .... expect weeks or months of legal hassles - even if perhaps a justified shooting.

We do NOT take carry lightly ... and it is NOT an excuse to use on a whim .... best choices are ... talk way out ...... avoid in first place - or just plain RUN!!

Ask any here .. you'll get about same answer .. the armed citizen is by and large a VERY polite person ... doing about anything to avoid trouble .... not look for it. That means that a gun will only be used IN EXTREMIS - if it is a case of ''him or me''.

Yeah . sometimes things do go wrong - people screw up - but this is statistically infinitesimally small ....... when compared with the cumulative benefits.

Well as we see them - but you guys don't.

 

[ACP230]

Europe, a good place to be from!

Thank God my ancestors got out of there over 100 years ago.

 

[Beren]

the bottom line is people are more likly to die as result of jumpey CCW holders than being attacked my criminal.

I'm sorry. At least in the United States, the facts simply do not support your supposition. Especially not in Pennsylvania. I can't speak for other countries, but I can't even find a single instance in the past year of a CCW holder using force illegitimately. You are, in fact, more likely to suffer injury or death at the hands of the police than a CCW holder.

 

[ossie]

i must say i find it amusing the way europe and america have this special relationship, yet are so vastly different.

beren: i see where you're coming from and understand what you mean. to be honest, i find you to be the most rational and intelligent person to reply to me in this thread.

however, perhaps because of my different world view coming from being brought up in a relatively "safe" environment, i can't see the need to carry concealed weapons for defence purposes.

if europe ever becomes as violent as the US, then perhaps i'll be more encouraged to carry, but i just don't know.

in my opinion "the old world" still has some things to teach "the new"

 

[ossie]

quick clarification:

when i say concealed weapon carrier, i don't mean someone with a CCW license, i mean anyone with a concealed weapon.

sorry if i didn't make it clear in the first place.

 

[mod12]

gun control

i've never been more thankful that my maternal grandparents, christian and nancy sullivan came to america.

 

[ossie]

sullivan, that's an irish name you know.

guess why most irish people emigrated to america, the potato famine.