Any point in guns for self defence?

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Wow. I go out shooting and come back to this.

Okay, sasnofear:
from what i read it still blew up
And how many people died? How many might have?
also your are talking about palastine, that hardly has any relation to america, i dont see constant bombing & shootings by terrorists in america, do you?
You brought up Israel. My post was in reply to:
the terrorists in palestine/israel don't go about advertising their presence, and they don't care if they die or not. a concealed weapon will do nothing to prevent some random person walking down the street detonating his "martyr's shroud".
Now, you go on to claim:
Concealed weapons- larger chance people are gonna pull a gun in a situation where it really isn't required i.e instead of maby a punch up, you have a dead body.
Prove it.
lets face it, is it better to get into a fight or some over jumpey person with a gun, gunning someone down. more likley to be a fatality with a gun.
What? It is better to not get in fights in the first place. If you like to pick fights with people then I suppose I can see why you wouldn't want people to be able to defend themselves.
CCW will mean people are going to grab a gun in situations that deadly force can be avoided.
The possibility exists. They might also crack someone's skull with a nearby piece of lumber when it could have been avoided. What's your point?
people are more likly to die as result of jumpey CCW holders than being attacked my criminal.
Sorry, but that is an outright lie. Total fiction.

Ossie:
while CCW may enable an alert carrier to prevent an incident, it is more likely that they'll be unable to prevent it in time.
And police aren't terribly likely to prevent crimes. Should they be abolished?

CCW isn't 100% always the answer to everything. No one claims it is.
There's the difference between you and I, I don't see a separation. A concealed weapon is a concealed weapon.
Do you really not see a difference between a crim carrying a concealed weapon and me carrying a concealed weapon? That is incredible.
 
Perhaps I can explain why many Americans feel the need to be armed.
I know a man who is now in his 80's. He lives in south Texas, about 5 miles from the Mexican border.
In the 1970's he was at home, and his wife was going to the beauty parlor to have her hair cut. Shortly after she walked out of their front door...he heard a commotion in the driveway.
As he walked out onto the front porch of their home...he saw a young man who was a neighbor of theirs...arguing with his wife.They had been in constant feuds with these neighbors over property boundaries for a few months.
As he approached the neighbor...the young man drew a .22 pistol from his waistband, and fired several shots. The wife was killed on the spot, and the old man was hit 3 times in the arm, and abdomen.
The old man ran back into his home,and locked the door behind him. He watched the young neighbor fire another shot into his wife through a front window, then saw the gunman approach the front door of his home.
The gunman began kicking the door, and the old man armed himself with a double barreled shotgun that he used to shoot birds with, as they lived in a rural area.
As the door came crashing down...the old man fired both barrels into the gunmans' chest from a distance of about 6 feet...killing him instantly.
All of this took place in a matter of only a couple of minutes, and the old man was cleared of any wrong doing.His wounds have healed. He still lives in the same home, and he has since,re-married....to my wifes' grandmother.
 
some quotes arn't mine so kindly differentiate between different peoples quotes.


I'm not going to bother to reply to points that are ossies unless they are brough up as general points and not brough up as mine (even though they are completly correct)

#And how many people died? How many might have?

well the same :S isolated incident anyway, you dont see that happening much in US do you?

#Now, you go on to claim: / What? It is better to not get in fights in the first place. If you like to pick fights with people then I suppose I can see why you wouldn't want people to be able to defend themselves. / The possibility exists. They might also crack someone's skull with a nearby piece of lumber when it could have been avoided. What's your point?

have you actually read all the posts since you were away, im sure you'll find your answers there
 
Sasnofear, so if you don't believe in guns for self defense what do you believe they are for? I'm mostly a collector and target shooter, but I certainly don't look down on those that have guns for self defence.
 
well im certianly not anti-gun, i love target shooting and hunting but query the use of them with CCW though i do concede in some instances a home defence gun is a good idea if you are particulary at risk
 
This thread will probably end up closed...

... but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyways.

I'm a Canadian citizen, I was born and I have lived here uninterruptedly for 22 years.

I wholeheartedly believe that ordinary citizens should be allowed to own and carry firearms for the purpose of self-protection, and I stand by those Americans who choose to exercise their right to do so, even though I don't have those same rights.

Why do I take such a stand in a country where I supposedly don't have to worry about crime or terrorism?

I believe in the autonomy of my own life. It's my choice whether or not I am prudent or I take risks in my everyday activities, and my personal well-being is ultimately my responsibility. I have dreams, a future, loved ones, and personal belongings that all constitute important aspects of my life. I, like the vast majority of other people, do not choose to throw away our lives or do stupid things when we feel the need to have fun or out of despair when we are overcome by stress.

I'm not about to allow my dreams to be taken away from me unjustly, remote as that possibility may be. My dreams are dependent on my life, and this is the only life I have.

The probability of me becoming a victim means nothing; the government can keep on telling me that violent crime is going down, but I still hear and know women who have been sexually assaulted, personally know people whose homes have been broken into, and have been a victim of property crime. You can say it happens to 1 out of a million people, but someone still wins the lottery. It could be me.

If someone decides to show no absolutely no respect to my property, how can I trust him to show any respect to my life? If he decides to take my TV, fine. But if he decides to come back to take my life, do I have to ask him to wait for me to dial 911, wait for the police to arrive, and plead with him not to kill me so he won't have any witnesses?

The ordinary citizen isn't by definition required to be a sheep to every single force of nature, government, or crime. The ordinary citizen has his or her own dreams, property, and family to care about. It's their responsibility to protect what's theirs to the fullest extent of the law.

The ordinary citizen deserves to have at his disposal the most effective means of defending him or herself. In our world, that means is a firearm, and consequently deadly force. He or she deserves every right to use as much force as neccessary on that person whom decides to violate the social contract and present themselves as a threat to that person who is defending themselves. No philosopher has ever claimed self-defense to be a violation of morality.

You might argue that the vast majority of people are not qualified to own guns. My own personal ability and responsibility of owning firearms is not for you to decide upon; the vast majority of those whom own firearms are not the ignorant, racist, bigoted, or criminal types that television so indiscriminately portrays them as. We are ordinary people who have taken responsibility to protect ourselves in the event that law enforcement can't. We are students, doctors, chefs, lawyers, shopkeepers, welders, and members of almost any other profession you can imagine. We refuse to be held responsible for the actions of the few, as almost every aspect of human technology stands to be destroyed should we follow this rationale; cars cause accidents and kill people, computer viruses cause massive chaos, and electricty electrocutes, yet we don't attempt to blame and ban any of these technologies over the loss of human life, even when those using these technologies may have specific intent on using them for the purpose of causing harm to others. If you examine statistics, you will find that automobile ownership is a far more life-threatening aspect of society than firearms ownership; the fact is, most gun owners are not the types of people you might assume them to be from watching television. Cars have a purpose: to transport people and goods. Guns have a purpose: to protect human life and property.

If you don't want to own a firearm for the purposes of self-defense, it is your complete and unalienable right to do so. No one in the government will persecute you for that decision, but the criminal who does is under no obligation to practice such civility.

From a statistical point of view, an armed citizenry makes sense. It has been proven that it is not the punishment of a crime that deters criminal behavior, but the certainty and speed with which that criminal is caught following the comission of a criminal act. Even if we decided to put everyone who was caught for even the most minor offense on death row, we would not deter crime if those who committed crimes thought they would escape capture. By allowing the ordinary citizen to be armed, we dramatically increase the risk of certainty and speed with which this criminal will be punished for his behavior, and thus provide real and tangible deterrence to future criminal acts.

Again, I own guns not because I have visions of going out and shooting schoolchildren or robbing banks, or shooting shoplifters or drug users. I am not so stupid as to attach meaningful importance to trivial things like someone stealing a few quarters out of my piggybank, or even someone walking out of my house with my television set. The vast majority of gun owners aren't.

But if someone decides my life isn't important, then I will use whatever means neccessary to protect myself. My body is my temple; everything in my life depends on my well-being, my safety, and my ability to protect that which is important to me, and to continue living to achieve these goals in my life. No one should be allowed to take that from me, and it is my responsibility to defend against this, whether or not the odds of such incidents happening to me are miniscule or not, and especially if the good men and women of law enforcement cannot do so in time, a sad truth of today's world.
 
Some quotes arn't mine so kindly differentiate between different peoples quotes.
I did. I was careful to do that. Notice the "Ossie:" part way down? Cute way of avoiding some of the issues that you brought up, though.
well the same
You didn't read the articles I posted, then.
anyway, you dont see that happening much in US do you?
Hey, you brought Israel up in the first place, bud.

Still ... you're right. Mostly a different sort of crimminal here. Much more suited to being warded off using lawfully carried, concealed handguns. Wouldn't you agree?
 
i do concede in some instances a home defence gun is a good idea if you are particulary at risk
Why should one be able to defend their lives at home and not elsewhere?
 
You want to know why the UK and NI restricts the right of the subjects to carry weapons?

Soccer matches.

Surely no one in this area would ever want to protect themselves...
shankill1r.jpg


And this guy is living proof that "when guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have guns."
adair.jpg


Isn't his family hiding out in Scotland now? Whatever for? Surely there's no danger of an armed attack? I'm sure their poor neighbors wish for a few weapons.

Yeah, I was born in the UK...I thank God my parents saw the light. :rolleyes:
 
These debates are civil and for that I am thankful. One of the numerous posters here stated that we are close allies, yet far away with our European friends on many issues, gun control/self defense being a biggie.

Do a search for "White Wolf", I think it was, a young man from Norway who stopped by a couple months ago. The result was the same, 4+ pages of almost the exact thread.

We all have different laws. I think I have finally come to see why our UK friends like Agricola get a little hot about us Americans railing about British gun laws. Yes, self defense is a basic human right and should not be subject to restrictive laws.

But, in the real world, different nations and regions will interpret things differently. It is our Constitution that shapes the way we live, just like many Europeans are shaped by their history, which is much different from ours.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - we shouldn't project American values and beliefs on Europe, and they shouldn't do the same to us. In any case, there is lots that we have in common, but the right to self defense is not one of them.

We are not going to convince them, and they are not going to convince us. I think it is because we share some common ground that these threads are for the most part civil.

Just my humble opinion.
 
Minor edits to make a point...
"I guess what I'm trying to say is - we shouldn't project American values and beliefs on [the Middle East], and they shouldn't do the same to us. In any case, there is lots that we have in common, but the right to [religious and gender-based equality] is not one of them."

Does anyone agree with that statement? What makes the "right" of equality different from the RKBA?
 
I may be late in this party...

but I have something I want to add (and hopefully I am not repeating anyone...)
lets face it, is it better to get into a fight or some over jumpey person with a gun, gunning someone down. more likley to be a fatality with a gun. im sure there are homes in which a defence gun is useful but just because it's your RIGHT to own one dosen't mean every single household should own one, just because your a citizen dosen't mean u should be a gun owner there should be good screening and a 'good' reason to own one.
Citizens are not screened and required to have a 'reason' to exercise a right. Subjects do not have the ablitity to exercise rights, they have to ask permission to perform a revokable act. Rights are NOT REVOKABLE.

but i think he was trying to bring your nation up to our level. how can a nation with 11,000+ gun deaths per year, which retains the death penalty as a "deterrent" call itself a civilised, democratic nation?
First of all, we dont call ourselves a democratic nation. We are a REPUBLIC. Democracies have no elected officials in government. The society IS the government. Now that we have that out of the way...

Gun deaths? I didnt know that many guns were being melted down. Odd. Did you mean "deaths at the hands of assailants using firearms as their instrument of death?" BTW, a "civilised society" doesnt give the criminals more power than the "citizenry." Criminals are a scourge of a society, and is an occupation that should be hazardous to the perp's health.
 
ccw

stan and ollie. tell ya what. i really think you guys oughtta stop shootin and drillin people in the knee cap. after that dies down, quit rollin ale bottles filled with petrol and burning rags into the pubs. next it would be appreciated by the brits if you would stop backshooting their troops on patrol in your quaint scenic villages. try to keep the racket down to a roar when you're digging up those ak 47's you bought with money you scammed from generous americans under humanitarian guise. continue to isolate men and women who marry across faiths. above all, don't come over here asking for help when you get your behind in a sling as you've done in the past. do you suppose the real people in ireland could conduct themselves with a little more orderliness while they're standing in line to get on the boat to sail west.it's rather unseemly to be so happy when they're leaving the auld sod.
 
sasnofear,

My life has been threatened by criminals at least a half dozen times over a 30 year span. They do this because they think that they are strong and I am weak, because they have a weapon and I don't, or because I am alone and they are many.

Considering my past experience this may well be expected to happen again within the next 5 years. I can't pretend my past did not happen and I will not pretend that other's misfortunes read about in the newspapers can't happen to me. My experiences never made it into any newspaper.

Does the lion attack a tiger? I see them in cages together all the time here. There is a deterent effect when both are predators. Criminals are predators doing what comes natural to them, I need teeth to fight back.
 
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I think something needs to be addressed...

"Jumpy"

What makes you Royal Subjects think that all Americans with guns are "Jumpy"?
This is not the case at all.
Should you come to the States for a visit and end up out here in the Utah area... I invite you to come shooting with us. You will find that we are the least "jumpy" people around.
We do not hope for the chance or excuse to shoot someone. Far from it.
I've been attacked twice in the last 4 years... I didn't fire my handgun in either case.
Although I could have.
Human life is valuable, and taking it is no light matter. However regardless of that value, my own life value is just as important and deserving of preservation.
I invite you to check out the following website:
http://www.a-human-right.com/
The author is the owner of this forum. He came to the US from Russia, and has an interesting perspective. I suggest you read through that site carefully, page by page. It is time consuming, but I think it will give your our collective perspective.


I have to say that I am pleased to see you guys here discussing things... Many times people who are "Anti-Gun" just throw out blanket insults and have no desire to "talk". Talk is good... talk is valuable... but for talk to be anything like real communication there must be at least the attempt for both parties to try to understand the other side.
I'm part Scottish and part Irish... I take pride in my geneology. One day I hope to visit the area where my family comes from... "Skipness" is the place, in Scotland.
I also admire your cars... I would love to have a chance to drive a TVR Griffon... It seems American car makers no longer have to desire to put balls in our cars anymore.

Am I off the subject? I am. Forgive me.

My point is this - For this thread to continue to have any value - we need to keep the backhanded complements and vielled insults out of our posts... on both sides.
 
RikWriter - Note: I never said things didn't happen, just not often and did the guy trying to get into your house try to shoot you?

First off, they only have to happen once to kill you, so that's a stupid argument.
Second, the guy didn't have a gun...he was just 6 foot 5, 270lbs, drunk off his rocker and had a tire iron. He was convinced that our house was his friend's house and decided that we were lying to him so he was going to bust in our door and beat us up until we admitted it. The sight of my father and myself pointing rifles at him sobered him up enough that he ran back to his truck and sped away before the sheriff's deputy arrived.
 
Just remember that if our forefathers had not owned firearms, then all of us over here would still be spelling it defence as well, not just the current "subjects" over there.



By the term forefathers, I didn't not mean neccessarily our direct ancestors. Instead I meant the good men & women from all over the world who founded and settled this violence ridden country where it seems today everyone wants to live.
 
I can spell the words "principle," "deem," and "you." I find it unsporting to engage in debate with anyone who can't.
 
Ossie wrote:

You don't think that's just a reflection on the country he's currently residing in? That he can only feel safe with a handgun and carry permit is a sad reflection on US society.

That the people of the UK are forced by their government to face serious and violent crime defenselessly, is an even sadder coment on UK society.

ever hear of my lai? too bad the vietnamese there didn't have guns to stop the massacre, isn't it? or the koreans at No Gun Ri?

Ever heard of the Boston Massacre?
 
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Well, for the record, let it be known that these threads CAN serve a purpose -- they should be a reminder, however unpleasant, than culture boundaries are very real and very difficult to overcome.

Wes
 
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