Any suggestions on how to help stop "tipping"

[rklessdriver]

A few months ago I stepped my lady up from a Walther P22 to a Sig P6/225. Against my better judgement I bought her the Sig over a Glock 19, even thou with training women to shoot I've had 100% success with the Glock 19 and a much, much harder time with conventional pistols. She liked the Sig better after handling and dry firing them both, so thats what I went with.

Her problem is the common "TIPPING" of the pistol (when she pulls the trigger before it recoils) and it has surfaced after a few trips to the range with the Sig P6. She dosen't do it with the Walther P22, infact she shoots the Walther quite well at 7 and 15yrds commonly shooting 2-3"groups which is pretty good IMO for a 40yr old woman who has never shot a gun before meeting me and has only been activly shooting for about 1yr maybe 1 or twice a month.

Basically she will shoot the first 8 rounds out of the Sig OK but after that she starts tensing up and jerking the trigger and pushing forward on the gun, dropping rounds completely off the target at 15yrds and nearly at the bottom of the paper at 7yrds.

I know what she is doing. I saw other Marines do it all the time when I was a range coach in the Marine Corps. I know its all mental and something the shooter has to overcome by telling themselves every shot "NOT TO DO IT". I tried everything to help her stop. Changing hand position, making sure she is "pushing and pulling" lightly with the hands, breath control, focasing on the front sight, ect. Then today I had a small break through as I think I got her attention when I had her hold and sight the pistol while I pulled the trigger. As I started back on the trigger she immeadiatly started fighting me pushing the pistol forward and tensing up, then right when SHE expected the sear to break she pushed forward tipping the pistol... but of course she didn't know I was holding the trigger just shy of breaking the sear engagement.

Just as I expected she didn't really understand until that moment what I was trying to tell her she was doing wrong.

So now we have the probelm identified... but she tells me she dosen't know how to make herself stop doing it. Anyone here had to overcome this problem, either teaching others or themselves. Tips, tricks, or advice that I didn't learn in the Marine Corps. I already have a plan of a lot of dry firing practice for her. Anything else I could try to help her.
thanks
Will

 

[Princi]

It is more commonly called flinching and is a common problem. I even do it on occasion when I lose focus. I've found that by keeping a loose hold with the shooting hand and a tighter hold with the weak hand, I have less tension on the trigger finger. I'm really not sure why this works for me.

What I've done with some women is to load the magazines and insert a snap cap in the middle of the magazine. When the gun goes click and the muzzle drops, they get the mental picture, and amazingly quickly adjust.

The other thing I've found is that people don't notice the recoil as much as they do the noise. So having them wear ear-plugs and then muffs over those helps too.

 

[Waywatcher]

Dryfire trigger practice.

If it doesn't work she needs more.

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

I had a really bad flinching problem that severely cut into my bullseye scores for a month or two. I fixed it by using an incredibly slow, steady trigger pull for a few practices. By doing this it makes the trigger break a surprise. You can't anticipate recoil if you don't know when its coming. Once you can consistently shoot without jerking, speed up the pull a bit. Now I can give the trigger a nice smooth squeeze in the same time it took me to give a jerky pull before. That, and my average went up about ten points over what it was BEFORE I had the flinching problem.

 

[Majic]

even thou with training women to shoot I've had 100% success with the Glock 19 and a much, much harder time with conventional pistols.

You are an instructor and don't know the term FLINCH?

 

[Ed Ames]

I see you shiver with antici..... .... ....pation.....



She's anticipating the shot and trying to overcome the recoil before it strikes. A lot of people say revolvers come in handy for training that out of people because you can load partial cylinders and the shooter will never know whether the next trigger squeeze will cause a bang. Dry fire practice helps too and so does switching between the flinch/anticipation inducing gun and a .22.

Or maybe the rain is really to blame.....

 

[Trebor]

I recommend dry fire practice at home. Just a few minutes a day. She needs to learn perfect trigger manipulation with the empty gun. Follow up by having her dry fire at the range immediately before loading the pistol for live fire.

Also, not to criticize your military experience, but what formal instruction have you receive to teach handguns? You may want to consider taking the NRA instructor class. This is a pretty basic problem you are encountering here and some formal instructor training for you sounds like it would help.

 

[rklessdriver]

I appreciate the replys.

MAJIC
Sorry I didn't use the term your used to hearing. I can assure I know what it is even if our termonology is different. My PMI in boot camp and my instructor in the range coach course (taught by the Weapons Trainging BN) both called it Tipping and that's the term I have used for the past 10yrs.

As for my experiece. I have not taken the NRA course. I have been through the Range Caches course and Competitive Marksmanship Course at Stone Bay range Camp Lejeune. I have also competed in a couple of Intrumural and Division Service rifle/pistol matches over my career. Like I said, I've had this problem with students before but never on this level.

I had also loaded up some dummy rounds and put them to use (the first time I have ever had to do this BTW) but, really until yesterday she didn't have a clue she was doing it. She would hit one of the dummy rounds and flich, then I would say "see what your doing?" "Your anticipating the gun going off and the recoil" I even demonstrated it for her. She would just say "yes" but really didn't understand for some reason. Her brain didn't make the connection until today. I was really worried I wouldn't be able to get this undercontrol before it got ingrained to her and became a problem I couldn't fix. I think now that we have had that "break through" and I have finally made her aware of excally what she is doing wrong we can correct it.

I merly want to see if someone had a method I did not know about.

PRINCI
Thanks, I think you are on to something about the noise being more of a factor than the recoil. Next weekend I will make her wear double hearing protection.

Until then its dry fire every night before bed.
thanks all
Will

 

[jwr_747]

pet depot sells those "shock" training collars,that and dry firing should work. jwr

 

[Owen]

ball and dummy drill.

also, I assume you are using a front sight focus. after you see her do it, ask her where the front sight was when she shot broke.

Make sure she knows that trigger pull and sight alignment are simultaneous. You don't align the sights and then pull the trigger. you squeeze the trigger while the sights are aligned. Its a difficult concept to understand. the lighter triggers on a .22 can disguise that the shooter has this problem, but it becomes very apparent with a heavier trigger, especially DA.

 

[S&Wfan]

Milking is what I call it.

Hand her a hard kicking revolver and don't tell her one of the cylinders was intentionally left unloaded.

She'll be shocked when she sees what she does when the hammer falls on the empty cylinder!

Then, discuss what she's done.

Next, load the revolver where she can't see it, then tell her that more than one cylinder is unloaded. In truth, there are NO rounds in then gun!

Once she can handle that and not flinch. Let two unloaded and try it again. I'll bet she'll be nailing the target well with this cylinder!


BTW, the best advice I can give you doesn't come from me.

Check out the "Cornered Cat" website . . . a site written BY a female shooter TO other females AND ESPECIALLY, those guys in their lives who are trying sooooo hard to make their ladies into shooters.

The writer is so good. Her name is Kathy Jackson and she's a Moderator Emeritus on THIS SITE!

Here's the link, and ALL guys should read this site before they attempt to "help" the "little lady." Also, all prospective women shooters should read it too . . . and then discuss what they learned with their guy! Here's the link:

http://www.corneredcat.com/

It opened my eyes to a lot of differences us guys have with our ladies when it comes to guns and how to teach ladies to shoot. Frankly, I realized I approached it way wrong sometimes.

I'll bet you will learn some things too that will help you relate better to helping the ladies in your life to enjoy shooting with you!!!

Good luck! We need all the female gun enthusiasts we can get here in America, and Kathy's brilliant insight and easy reading can help!!!

T.

 

[Owen]

S&Wfan, i agree with everything you posted except the "hard-kicking" part. Handing her a gun that recoils more than she is prepared for will not help with a flinch.

 

[bluto]

Here's a link to the "Bump Drill" as taught by SIG guru Bruce Gray. It specifically addresses shot anticipation, which seems to be the problem that your girlfriend is experiencing. He uses the P226, a double stack version of the P225. I think he demonstrates a well thought out training technique.

I'd recommend using it as dry fire practice as well as at the range. Might help.

BTW, I thought your term "tipping", though not common shooting jargon, was perfectly descriptive of what was going on.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid452320104/bclid459256134/bctid1039847599

Finally, I'd tell her to remember that, if you let it, the pistol will do all the work for you. Just hold it and squeeze the trigger. It's simple, but it ain't easy.

 

[skinewmexico]

I'd call it more of a recoil anticipation than a flinch.

 

[evan price]

Well, remove the cause, but NOT the symptom!


Seriously, dry fire drill, "Riding the sear", is the best way to overcome a flinch. You start slowly pulling the trigger on the decocked (AND EMPTY!!) pistol until the hammer just starts to move, then practice pulling the trigger a little more and a little more, as the hammer moves more and more, until suddenly it CLICKS. Practice this a lot. Great for in front of the TV.
Make sure it's empty, and there's no loaded mags or ammo any where near there, though!

 

[Wildfire]

Sorry but I agree.

Hey there:
Sorry but I must agree. Too much gun. A single action trigger will help. Better ear protection and lighter loads. She is flinching.............
It is going to be very hard to change that now. Go back to a smaller gun and she may stop. Good hits are better then big bang.
Keep her shooting ....

 

[loop]

There is a pretty easy cure for this - I call it the "Dime Drill."

Lay a dime flat on top of the slide. Then have the shooter dry fire the gun. Do this until there is no noticeable movement of the dime.

It does two things. One, it forces the shooter to focus on holding the weapon steady. Two, it increases muscle memory by making the shooter keep the gun in the same position through trigger pull and sear engagement.

Later, when you get to keeping the muzzle on target through recoil, the drill will come back to be valid again.

It is easy, costs nothing and offers something that easily understood and easy to focus upon.

I recommend the drill to novices, but also suggest experienced shooters do it every few months just to make sure they have maintained their focus.

You'll do as you practice. If you practice this drill enough it will carry over.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Buy some snap caps, dummy rounds, whatever you want to call them.


Load a mag for her, where she can't see you.


Don't let her know that there are dummy rounds in the gun.

It will be readily apparent to her what she is doing.

 

[Wildfire]

Maybe , maybe not.

Hey there:
I'm not so sure you can trick her into not flinching. She more then likely already knows what she is doing. The bang and some of the recoil is making her jumpy. That is not going to just go away by her suddenly noticing what is going on. Video tape her face when shooting and you may find she is also closing her eyes at the bang. Once a bad thing develops it is very hard to get it to go away even with guys, She is not alone with this. There are a lot of tuff guys that do it too.
Shooting from a sand bag with a smaller gun will help relieve some of the jerking , pushing , and tipping,... Then move back to the free hand stuff.
I have video taped many guys shooting hand guns and rilfes , You would be very shocked at what really goes on. Most of them have a hard time believing that they really did something, like closing their eyes at the bang and such. But the camera will tell the truth.

 

[chris in va]

Our minds and bodies are designed to compensate for a force/lack of force placed upon it. Overcoming that instinct can be a very hard thing to do. That's why I feel handgun designs today are not what they should be in the 21'st century.

But just try and tell her to mentally focus ONLY on her trigger finger...nothing else. Just pulling it straight back.

Honestly though, there's not harm or foul in her sticking with the P22 if she likes it. My friend ADORES my 22 Kadet, so I end up just loading those silly 10rd mags over and over. She really likes my HiPoint carbine too.

 

[Owen]

wildfire, people often have no idea they are flinching. with the noise and gun jumping their instincive reaction to an explosion a few inches in front of their nose is completely missed.

 

[Owen]

secondly

Shooting is a very psychological game. Phrasing tasks in the negative is setting the shooter up for failure.

If the goal is "do not flinch," the shooter is going to be thinking "flinch" as the trigger breaks. You need to phrase the task positively. "stay focused on the front sight through recoil," etc.

(why has the quick reply box shrunk?)

 

[Halo]

When I was new to handguns, I got myself out of that tendency by convincing myself there was more trigger travel than there actually was. I can't really describe how to do this since it's a mental process and I imagine different techniques work for different people.

But I think all of them have one general thing in common, which is trying to make the trigger break almost a surprise to the shooter. I agree with some of the previous suggestions about doubling up on ear protection. The loud sound makes people flinch just as much, if not more so, than the actual recoil impulse.

 

[El Tejon]

Dry practice 5 minutes every night for a week before she goes to the range the next time. It will do wonders.

 

[saspic]

You made a reference to breath control. I try to exhale sharply when I shoot. I helps me. Nothing is worse than holding your breath when trying to do something difficult.
I actually brought this over from self defense classes. Each punch, kick, etc. must be followed by an explosive exhalation, whether giving or receiving.