Anyone here believe a .380 is inadequate?

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Browing, Sorry, but you are wrong again. My 380 has great sights. And even Night sights! I have no problem drawing or handling the gun at all.
No, I'm not wrong. Don't attempt to shoot the messenger.

If you take a selection of all the .380 ACP pocket pistols out there and compare them to all the sub-compact 9's and .40's out there what do you think that you'll find in regard to their sights?

Yes, that most .380's have smaller hard to see sights in comparison with the sub-compacts and compacts.

Reduced magazine capacity? Sorry, but mine is fine, I shoot it well with the 7 or 8 rounds in the gun. You probably do need 17 rounds or more.
No, I'm correct again. Regardless of what you think of my gun handling skills (despite me posting a video, by the way ... where's your video?) .380 pocket guns have a reduced mag capacity and are harder to shoot well.

Ballistics? Hey, 380 is fine.
Really? Have you even looked at the ballistics of a 9mm compared to a .380?

Something tells me that you haven't.
If you are really concerned about how many rounds, then maybe get to the range and start training.
I have and I do.

It's also more like I doubt that you know that multiple criminals often work together. That missing is a possibility once you're off a square range and moving and taking cover are the norm.

Maybe bigger is better especially since a loud noise would be more of a help to you might scare the rapist off. . I wonder if you believe in spray and shoot? Need a lot of rounds for that I would imagine.
Sure, I disagree with you on what caliber and pistol is a good idea to carry on the Internet. I must be an incompetent idiot with no training, no direct experience and nothing to offer in this discussion.

Several assailants coming at me to cause extreme amount of harm, rape and kill? Get real. Gee, I hope all these assailants or not gay Zombies. Now ya got me all shook up.
You do realize that women do carry concealed right? Did you consider that this might not be a consideration for them? Maybe you just don't have a lady in your life huh.

And just for you, since the chart I go by to focus on my training has the FBI as a source, I blurred out the word FBI. Shucks, did not care if that was listed as the source or not. But it sure wrecked you day. Man if all the bad guys get as shook up as you over my Pico, I might not even need to shoot the gun.

Here is the refined chart, just for you my friend. See, now you can relax. Not to mess up your day even further, but a pic of my sights.
I could care less about the meme you posted (the information is suspect at best and fabricated at worst), nor do I care about the sights on your individual pistol.

Just curious, what pistol classes have you attended with your Pico?
 
Depends on if you are the one shooting or getting shot. A couple of 380 shots into the chest or face might seem pretty powerful to the poor slob that had to eat them.
If he or she were behind cover like a vehicle or a wall you might not even hit them if you used a .380 ACP. The poor slob might just shoot you in response. The fight doesn't always go down like you think it will.

If you ever have the opportunity to take a vehicle class or shoot through a vehicle using a selection of cartridges and loads you'll discover this pretty quick.
 
What makes "civilian concealed carry" different, in terms of adequacy relative to the weapon in hand, from any other example of firearm carry, when using a firearm against people when one finds him or herself in a gunfight? LEO in uniform, undercover officer, armed mall security, off-duty policeman, or lawfully armed civilian- once that gun (which is whatever one you brought to the fight) is in your hand, all that matters is winning.
My thinking is that as a civilian, it is highly unlikely that I would be using a firearm at a target more than 10 yards away. That likelihood is different for LEOs. Different mission and different legal standards. At least that’s the way it seemed from the required concealed carry class that I attended.
 
This is one of those perennial debates that typically end up revolving around either statistics or someone's personal preference (or "belief") regarding what's "adequate" for personal defensive use when it comes to handguns.

Well, statistics can be gathered and made to mean whatever someone wishes.

Personal preference? It's not always possible to change someone's thinking regarding facts, as not everyone applies the same meaning and importance to words as the next person. ;)

When you've seen what happens to someone shot by various calibers, including .380ACP, it can make the ground under your feet feel a little less solid when it comes to thinking that caliber selection is some immutable factor and an overriding influence when it comes to the effectiveness of defensive handguns. Nice if it were true, but the world doesn't provide us with such convenient "answers" to things.

One of the members on a couple of other gun forums works in the criminal justice field and has been involved in investigations of more than 200 murders where .380ACP was used. That's more than one of the favorite" studies" previously linked in this thread.

Like other cops, I've had a case or two where .380ACP was used to shoot into or out of a house or other structure, and the little .380 rounds can penetrate more than "caliber aficionados" might often like to expect.

Now, for a dedicated service/duty caliber, I'd not particularly wish to carry a .380 as a primary weapon. The job alone tends to put someone into Harm's Way very frequently, and when you think about being repeatedly dispatched to reported situations where violence is suspected or known, or you actively go around looking to find and intervene in suspected situations involving criminal activity, it can start tilting the odds a bit against you compared to the average person just going about their daily business looking to avoid trouble.

The "minimum" service/duty caliber I'd feel comfortable carrying would be a .38SPL or 9mm ... however ... given my druthers, I'd not exactly "feel adequately armed" going into a known situation that might involve shooting unless I retrieved a shotgun or rifle from my veh. The handgun is a minimal level of defensive/duty weapon, convenient because it can be worn in a holster, freeing my hands for other normal tasks, but still allowing me to be armed in the event of a sudden situation.

So, back to the .380ACP ...

I stopped using the .380 for approx 25-odd years as a younger cop. The only reason I gave the caliber some further consideration many years later was due to the improved quality and diminutive size of .380 pistols, and even then, only because I could slip a pocket-holstered LCP into some jeans or jacket pockets that wouldn't let me carry one of my J-frame snubs. I could carry a LCP in some of my normal retirement activities when I didn't anticipate a higher risk and felt like wearing a belt gun, and could be armed without having to "dress around" the weapon. As a retire cop and someone who had spent a lot of years serving as a firearms trainer, I'd long since tired of always being armed with something large enough to have to "dress around" it.

Now, I tend to think of the .380 as being at the marginal end of the adequate range of personal defensive calibers. It lacks the bullet weight of the .38SPL, and the usual velocities seen realized in the sub-3" pistol barrels might make expansion an iffy thing. Then again, the velocity and bullet mass of the little caliber might make penetration an iffy thing if expansions does occur. Well, TANSTAAFL. It is what it is ...

... and what it is ... is often an approved "minimum" caliber approved for secondary & off-duty use by many LE, pretty much alongside the venerable .38SPL fired from sub-2" to 3" snubs, and nowadays the little 3" guns chambered in 9mm.

Is the .380 popular? Easy question to answer. Just look at the market demand for them. In one of my previous Glock recert classes we were told that the reason Glock had finally decided to create a little single stack .380 for the US market was because of the commercial sales numbers for the caliber. It was said that in the 3 years leading up to the development and release of the G42, that the .380ACP was the hottest selling commercial (non-LE) handgun caliber ... and ... the biggest section of that commercial market was ... women buyers and shooters.

For many years in the revolver heyday of LE, it was quite common to see cops carrying either a PP, PPK, PPK/S chambered in .380, or a .38SPL snub. The .38SPL snub was pretty ubiquitous in that regard. There was no shortage of firearms instructors who might use a "respectable" caliber for duty, but who pocketed a .38 snub on their own time.

I tend to suspect the newest small & light plastic .380's, and the growing market of diminutive plastic single stack 9's, are going to take the place of the venerable Chiefs Special .38 as the easily pocketed defensive weapon of the next decade or 3 of the 21st century. Don't get me wrong, as the .38 snub is alive and doing well ... but the little .380's are selling about as fast as anyone can make them, and they cost less and are more easily concealed.

Now, being able to develop good skills at shooting them may require some work, but mastering the little 5-shot .38's took some effort, too.

I'll keep my half dozen=plus 5-shot snubs ... and my pair of LCP's ... and they'll all see use as retirement weapons at various times and in various circumstances when one of my bigger belt guns aren't considered desirable, by me. Do as you will, and practice/assess your skills. ;)
 
For all the people caught up in the bruhaha over this or that caliber/gun, it would do well for people to remember that there are no magic bullets and all handguns are a compromise in portability/concealability vs power anyway.

You know what a .380 represents?

Another choice...another option.

It has both advantages as well as disadvantages, as do all other handgun choices.

Balance those choices as you see fit, for your own circumstances.
 
I wish Clark would step in and give his thoughts on this diminutive cartridge.

but, i looked at his profile, and he hasnt been here since March.

He has done some interesting and borderline crazy things with the 380, and is worth looking into.
 
In regards to fastbolt comments. Yes, I am a believer in the modern day ballistics of the 380. And one can argue that the 9mm is better than a 38, personally I think they are both great rounds.. I personally do not think the snubbie is going any where. Of course you are going to get the usual more is better group and the snubbie does not have a large capacity etc, etc. I do have a LCR9mm and ironically it is my favorite range gun. I do obviously own other larger guns, SR9C, CZ 75 etc. I see where comments are really gearing to folks that seem to think they have the same needs or requirements as a Police Officer. Power to shoot through cars, walls what ever. Maybe we should all train and carry like a Police officer, even wearing vest. Practical seems to go out the window when it comes to certain shooters or CCW weapons.
I train hard with my Snubbie, and if that were the only CCW gun in the world to choose from, it would not bother me much. Thanks for your post. By the way, I do own a Mossberg 500 cruiser. I would say it is only 20ga, but know that some posters would pounce on me like a starving Cat simply because it is not a 12ga.

I do not know who Clark is, but he sounds interesting. I have been a 380, enthusiast for over 10 years and shot thousands of rounds through them and I feel I know the cartridge very well for what they are capable of doing. Enough to know they are a deadly round.
I also shoot my 9mm's on a regular basis. If fact almost weekly they will get shot sometimes twice a week. I actually do not shoot the larger pistols very much. After training so long with the small guns, I find them just down right fun to shoot.

08Mxu4f.png And this 9mm which I love.

BUJpOA5.jpg
 

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This thread has unfortunately, although predictably, spiraled down into heated personal disagreements. I'm closing it before a few folks get to the insults stage. Y'all be safe if you're in the path of the big tropical storm, or go out and do something fun if you aren't.
 
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