Anything Smaller than 9mm Luger

[Onward Allusion]

FOR SELF DEFENSE . . .

Specifically, I'm referring to:

- 22 LR
- 22 Mag
- 25 ACP
- 32 ACP
- .380 ACP
- 9mm Mak

FMJ/LRN/Solid Point has always been my belief for anything smaller than 9x19, however, with better .380 ammo out there, I'm starting to waver on the belief that .380 should be FMJ.

NOT debating the viability of smaller calibers. . .

Thoughts?

 

[Dframe]

For what purpose? I own, load, and shoot All of those calibres.

 

[TBH]

What about 22mag? I'm thinking about a LCR

 

[bannockburn]

The only caliber of the ones listed that I regularly use for CCW is .380 ACP. With that caliber, with a JHP bullet, I like Speer's 90 gr. Gold Dot and Hornady's 90 gr. FTX Critical Defense ammo.

 

[oneounceload]

Any can do the job, and just like hunting big game with small cartridges, it comes down to shot placement.

 

[browningguy]

I've been carrying the Hornady 35 gr. XTP in my pocket .25's since they came out. They feed fine in my Beretta and Browning and seem very accurate.

 

[Mastodon]

Again, all about placement.

I don't feel terribly vulnerable if I take out one of our Cz-82s in 9x18.

Modern SD loads these days are pretty good.

 

[rcmodel]

S&W 317 .22RF = CCI 40 grain solids.
Baby Browning .25 ACP = FMJ.
P3AT and SIG P232 380ACP = Any 88 to 95 JHP.

FMJ is for practice.

rc

 

[IdahoSkies]

I think in less than .380 you really need to look at ball ammo. Penetration being key. (My EDC is a .32 ACP).

 

[torqem]

You're kidding, right?

That "shot placement" better be to the brain with such peewee calibers. The 9mm aint much, but if it's loaded right, it's miles ahead of those rds. I can maybe see carrying the tiniest 380 for a woman in a nice dress, or if you are lacking in the strength to control those adequately, a bigger 380. But really, why settle for a .25 or .32? Sheesh. Even the .22 mag is just 150 ft lbs, or less, from the 2" barrels. A good 9mm load is 350+ ft lbs (CorBon's 100 gr jhp) even it's from a 3" barrel. That extra "oomph" does increase your odds of an instant stop, you know. By quite a bit, in fact. When there's 5.5"x4", sub-16 oz 9mm's, how can you have a problem ccwing them? That's 3/4" shorter and 3-6 oz lighter than a steel .38 snub, which guys have been pocket carrying for 50+ years now.

There's a lot less difference between such a 9mm and a 357 (50-200 ft lbs difference depending upon the barrel length of the revolver and the load used) than there is between such a pocket 9mm and a .32. In the little guns like the keltec, most 32 loads are 100 whole ft lbs at best. The Silvertip is 80 ft lbs.

Are you aware that heart hits don't mean much? 5 seconds or more to stop a guy with a heart hit, if we are talking physical incapacitation, not "just" psychological quitting. A man has 2 lungs, so hitting one of them leaves him quite capable of assault for 30 seconds or so. The liver or spleen or kidney wont bleed him out as fast as a heart hit.

 

[epoletna]

I used to carry a .380 (Walther PPKs) and got to thinking it was more of a hole puncher than a stopper. No particular experience to make me reach that conclusion except looking at the small pellets I was loading into the cases. Thinking it over, I finally settled on the .40 S&W because it gave me more shots in the magazine than .45 ACP. I'm happy with the .40 S&W (Sig Sauer 226) but still don't have any experience to confirm my choice. I'm as comfortable carrying the 226 as the PPKs, so I'll stick with it. At least until something better comes along.

 

[strambo]

.380 is my new personal bare minimum, only because very recently there are a few loads that will both hit the 12" in ballistic Gel FBI minimum and expand.

With the teeny-tiny .380 plastic squirt guns available now, I see no reason to go smaller in caliber.

 

[arizona98tj]

I've been pocket carrying a North American Arms PUG .22 WMR as a backup gun now for a number of years. I'll sometimes carry my Ruger LCR .38 Spl as a backup....but given the size difference, I inevitably end up with the PUG in my pocket. As I said, it is my backup.

 

[mdauben]

I currently don't own a SD handgun smaller than 9mm and with the variety of pocket 9s available today I don't feel any real need for anything smaller.

Certainly a .25 or .32 is better than nothing but I can conceal a 9mm in any clothing I'm likely to wear in public so why bother?

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I shoot/load flat nosed lead in everything except .357 magnum for self defense. Especially in .32 acp, expansion is secondary to penetration and the FBI's single requirement is penetration to critical organs and structures.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Reading/FBIHWF.pdf

Unless you get a straight on shot to center mass and can hit critical organs/structures several times you cannot get incapacitation- shooting a hollow point thru a limb like an arm or even thru ribs at an angle will increase the need for penetration and with a hollow point you have effectively put the speed brakes on the bullet as soon as it hits tissue.

I shoot lead or FMJ with the biggest meplat bullet in any calibers I load for SD. Yes, I know that hollow points are perceived as better but in many cases the person being shot was not incapacitated due to the round not penetrating far enough and damaging something critical enough to make them cease/de animate them. Having done a lot of research on .32 ACP for SD and making my own loads I would not carry HP in .32 or .380...I have little experience with .22's. I even load flat nose plated lead in 9mm and .38. I do have some wadcutters for .38 to be tested this Spring. I prefer penetration above all else and a larger bullet as the next most critical component.

YMMV.

VooDoo

 

[Tomac]

What VdV said. All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. We want expansion but we *need* sufficient penetration.
I carry Hornady's standard-pressure Critical Duty in my 9mm's specifically because it sacrifices extreme expansion to achieve penetration right in the middle of the FBI's suggested 12"-18" of penetration regardless of bbl length (standard-pressure instead of +P for better controllability and faster followup shots).
JMHO...
Tomac

 

[jimbo555]

All the calibers mentioned have the potential to work for self defense under most circumstances. That being said I'm most comfortable carrying 45acp. But I do carry a beretta 84bb in 380 at times, it has a 14 round capacity and that balances against the weaker caliber in my mind.

 

[Godsgunman]

My personal lowest is .38spl. I did do .380 for a short while but the lack of sights on pocket .380s and only 1 rnd more than a .38spl made me drop it. I reload .357 and .38spl so monetarily it made more sense also. Having the much heavier bullet also allowss for better penetration compared to the .380. JMPO.

 

[mavracer]

I usually don't carry less than a 38 or 9mm, the PM9 and snubs are just too easy to carry.
That said I don't feel unarmed with my little Beretta tomcat 22 cal holes are still gonna hurt and placed properly will certainly end a confrontation.
I use CCI Balzer 40gr solids in it as they work 100% and I have a good supply of them.
I also have a couple 32acps used to carry a Seecamp all the time til I got the Kahr, I found that Fiocchi 60gr 1/2 jacket hollow points were exellent performers they smoked all the american JHPs by 200 fps and while they didn't really expand the exposed lead would flatten out a smidge over full caliber.

 

[GEM]

32 HR Mag or 327 mag. I have a neat snubby 432 in the former and a nice SS comped 632 in the latter.

They are quite easy to carry and respectable in the stopping power (oh, geez) debates.

 

[PuskRat]

My .22 LR reloads are the most deadliest Defense ammunition ever

 

[mgkdrgn]

FOR SELF DEFENSE . . .

Specifically, I'm referring to:

- 22 LR
- 22 Mag
- 25 ACP
- 32 ACP
- .380 ACP
- 9mm Mak

FMJ/LRN/Solid Point has always been my belief for anything smaller than 9x19, however, with better .380 ammo out there, I'm starting to waver on the belief that .380 should be FMJ.

NOT debating the viability of smaller calibers. . .

Thoughts?

as they taught us at Front Sight ..."any gun will do so long as YOU will do"

personally, I carry 22mag most of the time, but 45 colt in colder weather.

 

[PuskRat]

The reason the 380 was ruled out for NRA recommendations was the lack of energy in the speeding bullet. NRA guidance is minimum .38 spl for revolvers or 9x19 (Luger, Parabellum, NATO, etc) for autoloaders. I would probably feel comfortable opening my mind enough to use a 9mm mak, but I have a 9x19 pistol with almost an identical envelope as a makarov, so i am not motivated to do so.

New bullets do not increase the energy of a 90 gr pill at 1000fps (ish). The newer constructions can, however, reduce penetration (was never a .380 problem) more effectively transferring energy to the target. One gun store knowitall proudley proclaimed the .380 to be the ultimate fight stopper for a new generation, due to Horny's hot new Critical Defense loads. Hornady never made that claim. The counter man was a 380 fanboy. Effecient energy transfer can only, ideally, deposit 100% of KE. low energy is low energy. There are light, fast moving projectiles (9x19), heavy slow moving projectiles (45 ACP), heavy fast moving projectiles (44 mag), all of which will put an attack to an end (if u dont mine extra perforations from a magnum) and there are light slow moving projectiles. It has been bragged multiple times that the .380 and 22LR have killed more people than any other round. True. Perfect choice. If you're a spy or an assassin.

 

[PuskRat]

And no, "I wouldn't want to get shot with one" is not a valid criteria for selecting a defensive firearm.

 

[torqem]

A 380 suffices, until you actually have to shoot somebody, repeatedly, in the chest. That is a quite rare thing for a civilian to have to do.