Anything Smaller than 9mm Luger

[JERRY]

too many variables.

for some the lighter calibers are all they can shoot comfortably. and if they cant shoot comfortably they wont practice or carry it...

im not a sub caliber flag waiver but the G42 seems to answer to a lot of folk's problems. too small of a gun and the .380 hurts to shoot. too big of a gun and its hard to conceal.

then there are those who need or wish something smaller.... if a gun isn't convenient for the carrier to conceal, many wont carry. they key is to ensure the carrier of a sub caliber is not delusional in its abilities..... aptly applying it (.22lr, .25acp and the like) with an emphasis on shot placement and rapid follow ups. also that the gun is an extraction tool (shoot and scoot), not a stay and play tool.

 

[mljdeckard]

I tell my students, if they are going to carry a .380, get a hotter load, like from Double -tap.

 

[usp9]

All the calibers mentioned are lethal, and are game changers. Carry what you are competent with.

 

[strambo]

The reason the 380 was ruled out for NRA recommendations was the lack of energy in the speeding bullet. NRA guidance is minimum .38 spl for revolvers or 9x19 (Luger, Parabellum, NATO, etc) for autoloaders. I would probably feel comfortable opening my mind enough to use a 9mm mak, but I have a 9x19 pistol with almost an identical envelope as a makarov, so i am not motivated to do so.

New bullets do not increase the energy of a 90 gr pill at 1000fps (ish). The newer constructions can, however, reduce penetration (was never a .380 problem) more effectively transferring energy to the target. One gun store knowitall proudley proclaimed the .380 to be the ultimate fight stopper for a new generation, due to Horny's hot new Critical Defense loads. Hornady never made that claim. The counter man was a 380 fanboy. Effecient energy transfer can only, ideally, deposit 100% of KE. low energy is low energy. There are light, fast moving projectiles (9x19), heavy slow moving projectiles (45 ACP), heavy fast moving projectiles (44 mag), all of which will put an attack to an end (if u dont mine extra perforations from a magnum) and there are light slow moving projectiles. It has been bragged multiple times that the .380 and 22LR have killed more people than any other round. True. Perfect choice. If you're a spy or an assassin.

Except energy is irrelevant when it comes to terminal ballistics in, and of, itself. I can unleash much more KE in a single punch than any handgun round and transfer 100% of it.

All that matters with a handgun round is how deep the hole is and how big. So, the larger calibers are able to expand larger while also penetrating the FBI recommended 12"-18" in gel.

A .380 that penetrates 12" and expands to .45" has the exact same terminal effectiveness as a .38 SPL that penetrates 12" and expands to .45". It doesn't matter if the .38SPL has 100 ft/lbs more energy.

So, more energy being dumped or transferred into the target doesn't matter, just the volume of the permanent wound channel (tissue damage). The higher energy the load, the more KE there is to work with to get the bullet to expand more, penetrate deeper, or both at the same time.

.38 SPL and 9mm just happen to be the power point where it isn't too hard to find ammunition that penetrates at least 12" in calibrated ordinance gel and reliably expands.

 

[beatledog7]

For a pocket gun/ammo choice, just as with any other gun/ammo choice, you must achieve balance between your ability to put rounds on target and the rounds' ability to reach vitals quickly enough to stop the attack.

Of the three factors--gun, ammo, shooter--the largest factor is always the shooter.

 

[gamestalker]

I get nervous about the thought of trying to find the smallest that will suffice. But then I've been in it up to my eye balls more than once, so the last thing I want is to be under gunned.

Sure, proper shot placement along with the right ammunition is elemental, but from my experience trying to keep a handle on shot placement when you've only got 1 or 2 seconds is anything but easy. If losing my life because I didn't have enough cartridge to take care of business, especially if a wall, or some other obstruction should come into play, including heavy clothing, then I'll choose a larger cartridge for SD.

Just my personal opinion.

GS

 

[JWH321]

.22 LR the deadliest reloads?

Please tell us more.

 

[mgmorden]

I often carry a .380. 9mm Mak is just as good.

If push came to shove I'd PROBABLY be ok with a .32ACP. I wouldn't be happy with it, but I it would probably work fine. I wouldn't carry anything smaller than that though.

 

[GEM]

I would prefer to carry a smaller caliber if that was all that was available or convenient as compared to depending on my old toot's flying fists of aged muscle.

It is hard to find statistics that indicate a majority of crimes continue after the bad person has taken a round.

Note - I don't say - the bad person drops dead, is stopped, etc.

I said - the crime continues after the bad guy has holes in his or her person.

The vast majority of crimes stop when they get hit. Another vast majority don't even get started due to deterrence when the gun is seen. I have asked expert criminologists and they don't know of any significant differential if the bad person looks at the hole in guns of various calibers.

Yes, the biker, meth head, psycho, mummy, zombie may continue. How many of them are there so that you won't carry a lesser caliber as you might run into that perpertrator?

 

[tommy.duncan]

I carry a PPK sometimes. I don't have a 9x18 (yet).
I wouldn't have a problem carrying smaller calibers. Shot placement is the key.

 

[481]

FOR SELF DEFENSE . . .

Specifically, I'm referring to:

- 22 LR
- 22 Mag
- 25 ACP
- 32 ACP
- .380 ACP
- 9mm Mak

FMJ/LRN/Solid Point has always been my belief for anything smaller than 9x19, however, with better .380 ammo out there, I'm starting to waver on the belief that .380 should be FMJ.

NOT debating the viability of smaller calibers. . .

Thoughts?

Wavering on FMJ for the .380?

Lots of tests here, the results are subject to interpretation per your preferences, and I have made mine (which I won't share here so as not to unduly influence anyone).

I'll leave you to arrive at your own conclusion:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ShootingTheBull410/videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

 

[tarosean]

but the G42 seems to answer to a lot of folk's problems. too small of a gun and the .380 hurts to shoot. too big of a gun and its hard to conceal.

and to think the PPK has been around for some 80+ years...

 

[Hokkmike]

My .40 I carried occasionally.

My .32 Mag I carry rarely.

My .380 (A pocket pistol) is a 24/7 type of gun.

The MOST IMPORTANT feature of a defensive firearm is that you have it with you. My Bodyguard is the most concealable, convenient, and easy to carry handgun I own. I use the best (expensive enough) defensive loads and feel they are adequate to meeting a threat.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

In an appropriate gun I can see any of those calibers. But guns like this would be used as a backup, hideout or "get off me" (either as a first or last resort) gun.

 

[Walkalong]

I often carry both .22 Mag and .32 ACP. I won't argue about their effectiveness. The only one in the world who has to be comfortable with it is me. Sometimes I carry a lot more.

*shrugs shoulders* Do what you want, I won't second guess you either.

The MOST IMPORTANT feature of a defensive firearm is that you have it with you.

Bingo! Along with mindset and muscle memory from practice.

 

[SC Shooter]

For several years, my main carry gun was a Makarov 9 X 18. It's a great size, but being all steel, a little heavy. Seems like I was always hicking my pants up. recetly I switched to a polymer subcompact. I vacilate between my Wallther PK380 nd my Sig Sauer P938. Both are very comfortable to carry.

 

[MedWheeler]

In my Bersa Thunder 380, I carry a JHP load, but the gun is, admittedly, not carried much at all. It does stay loaded, though.

In my P32, carried only when in transit to and from my no-carry profession's work site, FMJs stand duty.

 

[JJFitch]

Practice the three P's!

Emergency room doctors will tell you that COM hits do not guarantee threat elimination no matter the caliber! Any of the listed calibers can do the job if:

The only sure way to stop the threat and near 100% lethality is suffecient hits to the cranial vault. (lethal head shot)

Think of COM hits as distractors to gain compliance then cranial vault hits as lethal stoppers. (Failure drill, Failure to stop drill, Two to the body one to the head!)

Learn the art of the defensive handgun, attain the will to survive, and practice the three P's, practice, practice, practice!

 

[torqem]

No you cannot unleash more power with a punch than with most pistols. A really powerful punch has about 150 ft lbs of energy. A jab is more like 60 ft lbs, like a .25 auto. The punch also has a lot less penetration, obviously. A really fast punch is 30" of travel in .10 second. whoopee, 30 fps.

 

[PabloJ]

32 HR Mag or 327 mag. I have a neat snubby 432 in the former and a nice SS comped 632 in the latter.

They are quite easy to carry and respectable in the stopping power (oh, geez) debates.

The .327 revolver with 6 shot cylinder smaller rb grip and 5" barrel would be real nice to have and best in sub 9mm category.

 

[PabloJ]

For several years, my main carry gun was a Makarov 9 X 18. It's a great size, but being all steel, a little heavy. Seems like I was always hicking my pants up. recetly I switched to a polymer subcompact. I vacilate between my Wallther PK380 nd my Sig Sauer P938. Both are very comfortable to carry.

The 9x18 is over 9mm in diameter and does not apply here.

 

[Dr.Rob]

380 and 9mmMak have a lot more ammo choices than they did 20 years ago.

If the ammo meets the FBI standards for penetration and feeds well in your pistol, why not?

With sub compact 9mms becoming so plentiful I think the 'pocket gun' concept is changing.

 

[Pete D.]

Any

can unleash much more KE in a single punch than any handgun round and transfer 100% of it.

Any handgun round? Or the cartridges in question?
Pete

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

My philosophy is simple. Carry the biggest you can reasonably carry and use that's reliable.

As such, I find it silly when people choose to carry a pocket .380 when they could easily carry/conceal a larger, more reliable, gun in a bigger caliber that they can shoot. Pocket .380s (or some of the others mentioned) should be reserved for when they are the only option at this particular moment... either because of arthritis, need for deeper concealment, etc.

It is true that any caliber can work. Shot placement, training, and ability are the most important factors. However, there's no denying that larger pistols will produce better accuracy and better reliability on average; and that the larger the caliber, the better your odds of needing fewer shots/doing more damage.

 

[golden]

32 and 380

I frequently carry a .32ACP, either a WALTHER PPK if I can or a BERETTA Tomcat for when the WALTHER is too big.

I use a FEDERAL Hydra Shok load in the chamber and COR BON Powerball for the rest of the magazine and my reload. I have not found any .32ACP or .380ACP pistol that is 100 percent reliable with the HYDRA Shok ammo besides the BERETTA 82/84/85 series. These are big for pocket pistols, so I do not carry them. I can carry a BERETTA 92 Compact, SIG 225, SPRINGFIELD ARMORY XD9 Sub Compact or WALTHER P99 in the same manner, so the large Cheetah pistols are my car or range gun.

I did try the KAHR CW9 and RUGER LC9 and they were too unpleasant for me. The combination of recoil punishment (for me) and practical accuracy (what I can achieve with this particular gun) was a downgrade from the .32ACP and .380ACP pistols I have mentioned.

When clothes and circumstances permit, I carry a SIG 232 in .380ACP. It is less powerful than the 9m.m. pistols mentioned above, but much lighter and more compact.
The .32ACP's are both controllable, accurate and very reliable, so I am happy with them. When I get a chance, I will try a PPK in .380ACP to see if it is as controllable as the .32ACP. Since only hits counts and only good hits will save my life, I want as much practical accuracy and control as possible.
I have that with the Tomcat, PPK and SIG 232.

Jim