Apparently Carrying a "Non-Gun" In Texas WILL Get You Arrested!!

[Foto Joe]

@sf46

Re-enactors don't carry on the way to events, if they did they might have to answer some questions. Once at the event they are on private property where there is not a problem.

I wore my Dragoon once when on the bike heading to an outdoor range in Livingston. When I got there the owner asked if I'd had that hog leg on my hip going down the road, I answered in the affirmative. This is when he politely informed this Wyoming boy about the open carry laws in Texas and that I was courting an interview with at the least a constable. On the other hand the 1911 fully loaded in my shoulder holster was perfectly fine.

 

[pohill]

Well said, Foto Joe. The human element, fueled by emotions, is the one factor in any confrontation that can be unpredictable.

 

[Sam1911]

think what some people are missing here is that it is illegal to open carry ANY loaded gun in Texas. You may carry long guns but they must be unloaded. If those BP guns were loaded then they would have been arrested for a whole 'nother reason.

I don't believe you understand the TX law quite the way Jenrick (and others) explained it. Loaded or unloaded a BP firearm is not illegal to open carry in TX.

Here you go again, in case you missed it:

How does that fit with TX law? Are only modern handguns prohibited from open carry, or other weapons as well?

Basically, if you read Chp 46.01.05: ""Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand" . 46.01.03: "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:
(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.

So as we've discussed already a cap and ball black powder replica pistol does not meet the definition of a firearm or a handgun.

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun ....

In short you can open carry a black powder pistol, as it's NOT a "handgun" under Texas law. You can open carry a "Firearm" which is NOT a "handgun" so long as you don't do it anywhere the law says you can't. Hence you can legally walk down S. Congress Ave. in front of the capital with a AK/AR/Shotgun/Etc. under this section, while doing so with a holstered unconcealed Raven .22LR is illegal.

 

[rodwha]

"From what I saw their handling of the elderly disabled vet was top notch and very professional and I heard no heckling in that video. On the other hand the longer video definitely shows citizens challenging the authority of the officers. Once the name calling starts then you've lost all of your credibility with me I'm afraid."

Indeed! Once the name calling began it turned me off. There's a right and wrong way to go about things.

 

[Jenrick]

I think what some people are missing here is that it is illegal to open carry ANY loaded gun in Texas. You may carry long guns but they must be unloaded.

Loaded or unloaded doesn't actually make a difference under chp. 46 of the Penal Code for Unlawful Carry, or Possession of a Prohibited weapon. Loaded or unloaded MIGHT make a difference under the Disorderly Conduct statute. An unloaded slung rifle is IMO much less likely to cause alarm as a loaded weapon carried at the ready.

-Jenrick

 

[Jim K]

I know it is hard for some people to grasp, but terms mean different things in different laws. In most states, and to the federal government, some firearms are antiques for sale purposes and can be bought, sold, shipped, etc., without the problems and paperwork of a modern arm.

But for other purposes and in other laws, there is no distinction made between modern and antique firearms. For example, armed robbery with a cap and ball revolver is armed robbery, the same as if the robber used a Glock. Assault with a deadly weapon is ADW whether the weapon is a Model 1836 .54 caliber pistol, or a Model 1911A1 .45 caliber pistol. And carrying a deadly weapon is just that; if it is illegal, then it is illegal no matter whether the weapon is an antique, a reproduction, or a modern design. If THAT law makes no distinction, it doesn't matter what the law on sales says.

So you can absolutely go to jail for committing a crime with an antique "non-gun". And if you do just to make some kind of BS point, I have no sympathy for you.

Jim

 

[Sam1911]

So you can absolutely go to jail for committing a crime with an antique "non-gun".

But, in this case that would be irrelevant as they DIDN'T commit a crime with their antique "non-guns."

And if you do just to make some kind of BS point, I have no sympathy for you.

Fortunately, their point doesn't seem to have been some BS 'cause I'm sure they appreciate your sympathy.

 

[stressed]

I will be following this. These officers were in the wrong IMO. Hopefully this does go to the supreme court. Sadly, after this laws may be changed in that black powder firearms WILL be reclassified as firearms.

 

[Tinpan58]

Going around carrying a black powder gun which is just as deadly as any other gun and saying I can because it is a non gun is lame, not smart and not responsible. It dose nothing to help preserve the 2nd amendment, it only gives fuel opposition and the news media. So that in a couple of years you can say black powder guns use to be non guns as you take your collection down to be registered. Obama stands up there and says he is only against ar15s, yet he just signed an executive order banning the importation of military guns that are more then 50 years old, the only people interested in those old guns are collectors. That shows that he is against all gun ownership, he just can't stand up their and say so. The 2nd amendment along with the rest of the constitution is dying a slow death in this county. The only way to win is vote these air heads out.

 

[stressed]

To the above, they are considered "NON-GUNS"

There is a memo on the BATFE's own website saying even Felons can be in possession of black powder pistols and their ammunition, and powders to load them in their FAQ area. State laws may vary, and they may also vary on if the weapon is loaded or not.

 

[swathdiver]

See what I mean? The Constitution says, "Shall not be infringed" and so many here have no problem at all with the infringements.

 

[Tinpan58]

Check this out, a tweet today by NRA News:

U.S. history book rewrites Second Amendment

http://rare.us/story/u-s-history-book-rewrites-second-amendment/

You know they don't teach cursive writing in school any more, so the kids won't even be able to read the constitution, they will only have school books and teachers to rely on

 

[YumaKid]

I think this incident should lead the "thinkers" amongst us to a volunteer effort to educate local LEO's in the differences between "...a replica thereof..." and a Ruger Vaquero/Blackhawk and the BATFE's rulings on the matter.

FIRST OF ALL (emphasis deliberately added); one should not adopt an attitude of "Imagonna SCHOOL these tinhorns!" You are attempting to explain some mildly esoteric differences amongst the two. Oh by the way, NOTHING should be loaded and RTF!

(Forgive me, but I see in some of the points made in this thread an attitude of "These guys are supposed to know EVERYTHING!" And the existence of a powder-and-capped Pietta-built Remington NMA in the hands of a civilian that they never met before is something that would rightfully cause "concern" amongst the LEO's in this session)

I'd produce said Remington NMA (because that's what I own) in a completely unloaded condition and compare it to some "standard modern" revolver; say an S&W 629, because that's also what I own and sometimes carry, and explain the differences thereof. Should I somehow manage to add a cartridge conversion cylinder from Taylors (gotta chase a few more spiders out of my wallet without SWMBO noticing), it would also be used in this demonstration.

The point is to make sure they understand that, while it is a "non-firearm", it can be dangerous. Maybe not in the same manner as a .45ACP S&W 625-2 loaded up with BP behind a Winchester SXT -I guess they call it "PDX" now- hollowpoint; but dangerous nonetheless. C'mon, there are many threads about using a cut-down Colt 1860 for personal defense on this page; let them know that it COULD happen.
The idea is to put EVERYTHING out there in a no-holds-barred manner, including that only "BP nuts" like us would think of this stuff; and that WE are sharing with them. If we talk to them about it, maybe invite whomever is interested to the range, they develop an idea that we aren't the typical 'critters' that they are likely to meet on the job. I've always maintained - thanks to my parents' teaching me - that by-and-large the LEO's can be (and would RATHER be) friendly.
Think about it realistically.... how many guys put on a badge just so they can wear a Glock (or whatever, our County S.O. guys are limited to a very few models of 1911A1's) and push people around? Most of the guys and ladies put on their uniforms "To Serve and Protect" in reality. The idea of such a "training" is to help them understand the laws and regulations so that they can, instead of worrying about "that guy", keep the peace for us; which is what they are paid to do.

I'd be more than happy to do this in my own County; but I really don't think it's necessary. Our present County Sheriff - a former Marine who left the Service and decided to stay in our town and take up Law Enforcement (exactly like the now-retired Sheriff before him) - has been known to shoot in SASS matches.
Consequently, I'd bet he knows the drill already, and could make sure "his people" are already informed.

Y'all can keep arguing back-and-forth about this if you want. But I'm thinking that doing something positive about the issue seems to be more useful; and can only help us in the long run.

As an aside, all I can say is that "Texas is weird"! You can carry concealed, but not open???? As long as the lead isn't already flyin;' I'd think the guys in the uniforms would like to know "Who has what and what are they gonna do with it?" just as much as anybody. Maybe it's just me.
I live in a state where my old CCW permit is no longer worth all that much; ANYBODY (as long as they can legally own a firearm) can conceal a firearm on their person and walk around like the guy taking his wife's Poodle to the veterinarian, as long as the vet hasn't posted a sign prohibiting weapons.

Arizona has "Out-Texas'd TEXAS"???? WOW!

 

[chrisTx]

I think the D.O. will stick, but it would be interesting to see the appeals court give some sort of an opinion on it. In Texas v. Johnson, symbolic free speech can be applied in cases where the activity is against the law, but carried out under the first amendment.

 

[swathdiver]

I'd produce said Remington NMA (because that's what I own) ...while it is a "non-firearm", it can be dangerous. Maybe not in the same manner as a .45ACP S&W 625-2 loaded up with BP behind a Winchester SXT -I guess they call it "PDX" now- hollowpoint; but dangerous nonetheless.

Put Swiss or Olde Eynsford behind a soft lead round ball or Kaido Conical and one has a more dangerous load compared to the Winchester .45 round.

 

[pohill]

If anyone feels the need to protest so you can open carry your ROA but not your Blackhawk, knock yourself out - like I said, it's your right. Bring all the attention you want to your BP revolvers. As was stated, it is basically a loophole in the law that these weapons are not classified as firearm. I like that fact. Just keep in mind, if Obama Care is fully implemented, everything will change. Talk to your doctor about the questions they will ask, and the info they will report, concerning your firearms as mandated by the ACA (Affordable Care Act). I do not belong to the NRA but I must admit I am impressed at their efforts to negate that part of the ACA and I most likely will join real soon.
Keep bringing attention to your BP revolvers, and when they introduce bills to require liability insurance for your guns, see where BP revolvers fall in that law.
I am not hiding my head in the sand, I am not afraid to rock the boat - I am a realist. If Obama can block the import of old military weapons, and no one is blinking, watch out...

 

[BullSlinger]

Good points Pohill.

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

I have been researching all the questions your doctor
has to ask you under OBcare. Since I only own c&b repros and
relics I can truthfully tell my doc: no Sir I categorically
do not own a firearm, nor drink, nor smoke, nor
nor dip, nor chaw, nor sniff.
When I go to local gun shows here in Texas I always take a few
cb revolvers to sell/trade. Sometimes I stick them in holsters or in my belt or carry
them openly from the parking lot into the venue. When
I check in with LOE, they put the zip ties on them, then I reholster
them and walk right into the show to enjoy some trading. The LEO guys at the desk and those cruising
the show dont give me a second look or ask me anything, then
again I am at a GUN show. Perhaps I should carry them into the show in a laptop
bag just to be safe in the parking lot. Although I am not an open carry protester I do carry laminated card
with the pertinent Federal and Texas laws concerning cb items.
BTW, how can dealers at gunshows sell prohibited items like Bowie
Knives and tomahawks? I know a fellow was charged when a game warden found
a Bowie in his tacklebox. Just wondering.

 

[swathdiver]

Check this out, a tweet today by NRA News:

U.S. history book rewrites Second Amendment

http://rare.us/story/u-s-history-book-rewrites-second-amendment/

You know they don't teach cursive writing in school any more, so the kids won't even be able to read the constitution, they will only have school books and teachers to rely on

Maybe not in government schools but in our church's academy the kindergartner's start off writing in cursive.

 

[Jenrick]

BTW, how can dealers at gunshows sell prohibited items like Bowie
Knives and tomahawks? I know a fellow was charged when a game warden found
a Bowie in his tacklebox. Just wondering.

Short version is that 46.02 (UCW which is where illegal knives, tomahawks, etc. are discussed) doesn't apply if you're on your own premise or direct route to or from your vehicle. The dealer is obviously on their own premise, or on the premise with the express permission of the owner. The items themselves aren't illegal to own or sell, you just can't take them for a walk out in public. So depending on where said tackle box was, that might have been part of the issue.

-Jenrick

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

The tackle Box was in bed of his truck. I guess the leo was looking to see if he had drugs which he did not so he had no problem with a vehicle search. He told the officer that the knife was for cleaning fish. The leo didnt buy it nor did the judge.

 

[Sam1911]

The tackle Box was in bed of his truck. I guess the leo was looking to see if he had drugs which he did not so he had no problem with a vehicle search.

LOL! He THOUGHT he had no problem with a vehicle search. Which perfectly illustrates why we tell people over and over, you DON'T, EVER, consent to a search. If they have probable cause, they'll search without your consent. If you consent because you're a good person with "nothing to hide," whatever they might happen to find could screw up your life in a big way.

Playing cooperative with "Officer Friendly" is never, EVER, in your best interest.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I can have brass knuckles, bowie knife or switchblade in my home as a curio, ornament, keepsake, collectible. On the street, they become "prohibited weapons".

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Indeed. Btw given the press the Texas open carry group has generated by their deliberate
and calculated confrontation with capital dps bike police to get the result they were looking for, I am going to take my cb items into the next
gs in a bag, have the leos inspect/zip tie them, tell them I am looking to trade or sell, and ask them if they have any problems with me holstering up or sticking them in my belt to wander through the crowd.

 

[pohill]

As a responsible knife owner, he should have known the laws. The Game Warden did.
With that in mind, would a local cop or sheriff (not a game warden) in that area even have bothered with that knife? The guy was fishing, not carrying it downtown.